IOSR Journal of Computer Engineering (IOSR-JCE)
e-ISSN: 2278-0661, p- ISSN: 2278-8727Volume 16, Issue 1, Ver. I (Jan. 2014), PP 32-36
www.iosrjournals.org
Clustering and Classification of Cancer Data Using Soft
Computing Technique
Mr.S.P.shukla and Mrs. Ritu Dwivedi
Abstract: Clustering and classification of cancer data has been used with success in field of medical side. In this paper the two algorithm K-means and fuzzy C-means proposed for the comparison and find the accuracy of the result. this paper address the problem of learning to classify the cancer data with two different method and information derived from the training and testing .various soft computing based classification and show the comparison of classification technique and classification of this health care data .this paper present the accuracy of the result in cancer data.
Keywords: clustering, classification,
I. Introduction
Cancer data classification and clustering have been the focus of critical research in the area of medical and artificial intelligence. Health care is now days very important for human being. Now everyone is health care unit of system are there to monitor and analyze health status of a human being .As we know health is wealth, if health of a particular is food individual will grow hence society and nation will go a health .This is the reason why soft computing based health care system is to be developed, which has proved it efficiency and performance with conventional system.
Cancer has become one of the major causes of mortality around the world and research into its diagnosis and treatment has become an important issue for the scientific community. The most important issue in classification and clustering of cancer data is deciding what criteria is to be classify against, for example suppose it is desirous to classify cancer disease in describing cancer one will look at its type ,spot, stages and duration and so on .many of these feature are fuzzy and qualitative in nature. For this classification some criterion is to be decided. One can classify cancer on the basis of its type, its human parts of manifestation i.e. mouth, thought, tongue, intestine, image, liver or similar other parts of the body.
The popular method of classification is very well-known as fuzzy C-means (FCM),so named because of its close analog in the crisp word, this method uses concept in n-dimensional Euclidean space to determine the geometric closeness or classes and the determining the distance between the clusters.
In this piece of research work two very important application of research work two very important application, classification and clustering are use on cancer data. It is well known that classification and clustering are the technique to separate same type of data together, classification is a supervisee way to separate same type of data to put similar type of data together. Classification and clustering technique can apply on cancer dataset and find the accuracy of classification and clustering.
The rest of the paper is organised as follows: The 2 section outlines the reason for using ear as biometric for newborn. This section is followed by details of database acquisition in section 3. Covariates of newborn ear is explained in section 4 followed by automated ear masking in section 5. The details of feature extraction and matching are explained in section 6 and this section also explains proposed methodology for ear recognition. Section 7 describes performance evaluation of different algorithms on newborn ear. Finally section 8 and 9 present future direction and key conclusion.
II. Cancer detection algorithm and concept
Our cancer detection system adopts a two FCM and K-means algorithms. In this process we show the class of cancer that mean cancer is benign (2) and malignant(4) .these frames are derived from UCI repository dataset. Which is use to compare the classification and clustering technique and find the accuracy of the result.
2.1 Data Description
In data description number if instances are 699(as of 15 July 1992) that are used for research work. This cancer data contain 10 attribute and their id number value between 1 to 10 .the last attribute of the data are class that has been moved to last column .attribute class are use two value 2 for benign and 4 for malignant.
2.2 MATLAB Software Working
The name MATLAB stands for matrix laboratory. MATLAB was originally written to provide easy
access to matrix software developed by the LINPACK and EISPACK projects. Today, MATLAB engines
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Clustering and Classification of Cancer Data Using Soft Computing Technique
incorporate the LAPACK and BLAS libraries, embedding the state of the art in software for matrix computation. MATLAB is the tool of choice for high-productivity research, development, and analysis. MATLAB Toolboxes are comprehensive collections of MATLAB functions (M-files) and our research paper is based on this function. In this research work data set convert in M-file, after the creating M-file MATLAB toolbox perform the comprehensive study of booth.
2.3 Clustering and classification with their algorithm
Clustering can be considered the most important unsupervised learning problem; so as every other problem of this kind, it deals with finding a structure in a collection of unlabeled data. A loose definition of clustering could be “the process of organizing objects into groups whose members are similar in some way”. A cluster is therefore a collection of objects which are “similar” between them and are “dissimilar” to the objects belonging to other clusters.
Classification same as classify the cancer data set but it is the type of supervised way and in this process training data has to specify what we are trying to learn so data classification is data reduction technique and data present in class from so classification contain the similar type value in group.
This research paper work are address to feed forward neural network are address to feed forward neural network which is work in based on supervised learning .this topic work in this technique ,that have three layer
• Input layer(multiple input data )
• Hidden layer(multiple or one layer)
• Output layer(one layer)
Classification side the three layer are available .first layer input layer have input data in matrix from ,second layer hidden layer ,some process feed forward neural network contain one layer and some contain multiple layer and last layer is output layer which is the resultant layer.
In clustering process the output layer will be hiding so in this condition that process is unsupervised process. Feed forward neural network use some activation function like
• sigmoid activation function
( )
hyperbolic activation function
( )
• linear activation function
( )
Data classification in clustering side use FCM algorithm .it converts the input matrix in output from.
III. Experimental Work for Cancer Detection
In the present work the soft computing technique one used for cancer affected object classification purpose .the soft computing technique derived their power due to their clustering and classification an ability to learn in experiment. In experiment work neural network related classification can be used for fairly accurate classification of input data into categories, provided they are previously trained to do so .the accuracy of the classification depend on the efficiency of training. The knowledge gained by the learning experience is stored in the form of connection weights.
The issues need to be settled in designing an ANN for specific application topology of the network training algorithm neuron activation function with weights and bias.
In our topology, the number of neurons in the input layer is 9 by the ANN classifier. The output layer was determined by the number of the class designed .the output are type1 therefore; the output layer of consist of one neurons. The hidden layer is consisting of 12 neurons. Before the training process is started, all the weights and bias are initialized. The training set used LEARNGDM adoption learning function and TRAINLM training function it is work in three layer and after the processing the experimental graph show the 100epochs .in this experiment work ,the training set was formed by choosing 160 data set for the testing process.
Cancer data is classify into one of two type object using the feed forward neural network classification in error back propagation algorithm .after the classification of the cancer object correct and incorrect classification are computer. The next step of classification algorithm is creating the performance matrix.
Same as work perform in clustering side and classify the cancer data find the accuracy of data set but in clustering side only two layer working network because it in type of unsupervised learning so the output layer are hide and find the accuracy of cancer data use fuzzy C-means algorithm and create the performance matrix .
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Clustering and Classification of Cancer Data Using Soft Computing Technique
IV. Training and Testing
The proposed network was trained with 240 data samples. These 240 samples are fed to the network with 9 input neurons, one hidden layer of 12 neurons and one output neuron.MATLAB software version 8 is used to implement the software in current work. When the training process is completed for the training data set the last weights of the network were saved to be ready for the testing process.
The testing process in done for 160 samples, the 160 samples are fed to the proposed network and their output is recorded for calculating of accuracy of data.
In second type clustering use 240 training data set only. It isn’t work for testing and the accuracy of data is less with the comparison of classification and finds the performance matrix.
V. Data Accuracy and Performance
The accuracy of cancer detected data was evaluated by computing the percentages of right classified cancer data .in classification data show the simple number 2 for benign and 4 foe malignant in training and `testing so we remake it data are classify or misclassify when target and actual class are same or differ
The related confusion matrix show the result of EBPA network after training and testing 160 out of 165 samples of benign class are classified correctly while 5 samples are misclassified similarly 73 out of 75 sample of malignant class are classified correctly while 02 samples are misclassified similarly in testing process perform in 160 samples.
In clustering only input the data value and match the target and work the membership function in C1 and C2 (C1 and C2 are benign and malignant class) if output value are high in C1 class for example data membership in C1 is 0.9746 and C2 is 0.0053 so data belong to benign class.
VI. Results and Discussion
Figure 1show the training curve with 100 epochs and figure 2 show the bar chart of performance matrix after the comparison between training and testing session the overall performance of classification are decrease in testing session .in training session correct classification of sample are 96.96% and 97.33% but in testing session the classification parameter are reduced and the percent are 94.54% and 94.00%.
Fig 1: Training curve with 100 epochs
Fig 2: bar chart of performance matrix
Fig 3 show the clustering of cancer data after applying FCM algorithm .In this session data perform only
training so in which 156 out of 165 sample of benign class are classified correctly which 09 samples are miss
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Clustering and Classification of Cancer Data Using Soft Computing Technique
classified. Similarly 71 out of 75 samples of malignant class are classified correctly which 04 samples are misclassified.
Fig 3: clustering of cancer data after applying FCM algorithm
At last comparison between both EBPA and FCM as simulated above the result is tabulated in table 1.1 from which it is clear that correct classified % in case of EBPA is 97.13% which in case of FCM it is 94.03% which clearly indicate that EBPA algorithm is performing well for classification of cancer related health cancer data.
Table 1.1: Comparison table
Class EBPA FCM
Correct Incorrect Correct Incorrect
Benign 96.96% 3.04% 94.54% 5.46%
Malignant 97.33% 2.67% 94.66% 5.34%
Average 97.14% 2.85% 94.6% 5.4%
VII. Conclusions
This paper presented a clustering and classification method for classify the cancer data and find their accuracy .this paper is compare on clustering and classification of soft computing with the area of health care data i.e. cancer data .As a comparison research that author of the current dissertation took bi-direction approach to the problem .In one direction the research studies the supervised manner on classification .the approach lead to constriction of intelligent, less error high performance network due to feed forward and layer architecture of paper.
In second direction, the research studied the unsupervised manner on clustering the approach lead to constriction of perceptional system which is based on fuzzy logic. In this paper exposed the problem of the result and proposed the solution of system by pointing out the attributes of cancer data.
Supervised and unsupervised are the two apposite techniques for classification of data but with the help of MATLAB software 8 used to implement the software in the current work. Supervised need both only input pattern. The EBPA and FCM are compared in terms of performance .the EBPA performance accuracy is 97.14% which in case of FCM accuracy is 94.6%which in case of FCM is having low performance due to unsupervised manner of classification.
References
[1] MATLAB software in URL address:\\www.mathworks.com\\The Math Works,
[2] Using Cancer data set from UCI repository data set ,the URL address: \\WWW.UCI.com\\
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[4] MATLAB software in URL address: \\www.mathworks.com\\The Math Works, MATLAB 7.5.0(R2007b) help file.
[5] Zadeh, Lotfi A., "Fuzzy Logic, Neural Networks, and Soft Computing," Communications of the ACM, March 1994, Vol. 37 No. 3, pages 77-84.
[6] Takagi, H.: “Fusion Technology of Fuzzy Theory and Neural Networks: Survey and Future Directions” IIZUKA90: International Conference on Fuzzy Logic and Neural Networks. pp. 13-26, Iizuka, Japan 1990.
[7] Tanaka, Makoto: “Application of The Neural Network and Fuzzy Logic to The Rotating Machine Diagnosis” Fusion of Neural Networks, Fuzzy Sets, and Genetic Algorithms: Industrial Applications. CRC Press LLC, CRC Press LLC, Boca Raton, FL, USA 1999.
[8] Lee, S. and E. Lee: “Fuzzy Sets and Neural Networks” Journal of Cybernetics. Volume 4, No. 2, pp. 83-013, 1974.
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[10] Zadeh, Lotfi: “What is Soft Computing” Soft Computing. Springer-Verlag Germany/USA 1997.
[11] Kacpzyk, Janusz (Editor): Advances in Soft Computing. Springer-Verlag, Heidelberg, Germany, 2001.
[12] Learning internal representations by error propagation by Rumelhart, Hinton and Williams (1986).
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Clustering and Classification of Cancer Data Using Soft Computing Technique
[13] Vikram Chandramohan and Tuan D. Pham James Cook University School of Math, Physics and IT. Of published ” Cancer Classification using Kernelized Fuzzy C-means” research paper
[14] Xiao Ying Wang, Jon Garibaldi, Turhan Ozen Department of Computer Science and Information Technology ,The University of Nottingham, United Kingdom of published ” Application of the Fuzzy C-Means Clustering Method on the Analysis of non Preprocessed FTIR Data for Cancer Diagnosis ” Research paper.
[15] Dave Anderson and George McNeill Kaman “ARTIFICIAL NEURAL NETWORKS TECHNOLOGY” developed by Sciences Corporation address of 258 Geneses Street Utica, New York
[16] Aleksander, Igor and H. Morton: An Introduction to Neural Computing Chapman and Hall, London, UK 1990
[17] Bonissone, Piero: “Soft Computing: The Convergence of Emerging Reasoning Technologies” Soft Computing. Springer-Verlag, Germany/USA 1997.
[18] Lee, S. and E. Lee: “Fuzzy Sets and Neural Networks” Journal of Cybernetics. Volume 4, No. 2, pp. 83-013, 1974.
[19] Gurney, Kevin: An Introduction to Neural Networks. UCL Press, London, UK 1999.
[20] Fausett, Laurene: Fundamentals of Neural Networks: Architectures, Algorithms, and Applications. Prentice Hall, NJ, USA 1994.
[21] Hertz, J.A., Krogh, A. & Palmer, R. Introduction to the Theory of Neural Computation (Addison-Wesley, Redwood City, 1991)
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MLaaS: Machine Learning as a Service
Mauro Ribeiro, Katarina Grolinger, Miriam A.M. Capretz
Department of Electrical and Computer Engineering
Western University, London, Ontario, Canada N6A 5B9
{mribeir5, kgroling, mcapretz}@uwo.ca
Abstract—The demand for knowledge extraction has been increasing. With the growing amount of data being generated by global data sources (e.g., social media and mobile apps) and the popularization of context-specific data (e.g., the Internet of Things), companies and researchers need to connect all these data and extract valuable information. Machine learning has been gaining much attention in data mining, leveraging the birth of new solutions. This paper proposes an architecture to create a flexible and scalable machine learning as a service. An open source solution was implemented and presented. As a case study, a forecast of electricity demand was generated using real-world sensor and weather data by running different algorithms at the same time.
Keywords—Machine Learning as a Service, Supervised Learn¬ing, Regression, Prediction, Service Oriented Architecture, Ser¬vice Component Architecture, Platform as a Service
I. INTRODUCTION
The amount of data generated has been continuously grow¬ing from global data sources like Web sites, social media, mobile applications, news networks, weather, political insti¬tutes, society and the economy. No matter how big the data are, they may be useless without proper preparation and processing. Many different machine learning algorithms have been used to extract valuable knowledge from data, e.g., for scientific modeling, consumer behavior, energy consumption forecasting, related article recommendation and user trends.
At the same time, with the popularization of sensors and mobile devices able to connect to a network (e.g., the Internet of Things), it is becoming viable to collect more data from specific contexts at higher levels of detail. By connecting global and context specific data, it is possible to extract even more detailed information and build richer knowledge using machine learning algorithms.
Large companies have enough resources to invest in their own machine learning solutions. However, small companies, developers and researchers in general have difficulties when facing the steep learning curve of how machine learning works and when building their own solutions or integrating with third-party ones. In addition, machine learning can require computational resources with impracticable costs. How could these users have access to affordable machine learning ser¬vices?
One way to meet this demand is by creating a functional and ready-to-use Machine Learning as a Service (MLaaS) platform. Because multiple users will be using the same platform, computational resources can be shared or allocated
on demand, reducing overall costs. By specifying a well defined interface, users can have access to machine learning process efficiently from anywhere, at any time. Users must not be concerned with implementation and computing resources, focusing mainly on the data itself.
This paper proposes a novel approach for machine learning, providing a scalable, flexible, and non-blocking platform as a service based on the service component architecture. This platform facilitates the creation, validation and execution of machine learning models. By taking advantage from service oriented architecture, the proposed approach becomes easily scalable and easy to adapt by adding, removing, changing and linking any component. This also makes the system more flex¬ible for handling multiple data sources and different machine learning algorithms at the same time. In addition, a graphical user interface is presented to facilitate the comparison between different models.
The proposed framework source code is available1 as an open-source project to facilitate its use for various prediction modeling tasks and to enable it to be adapted for other purposes.
The following sections of this paper are organized as follows: Section II gives an overview of machine learning, service component architecture and the main related works on machine learning as a service; Section III describes the proposed architecture for MLaaS; Section IV explains the MLaaS process; Section V presents the case study; and finally, Section VI concludes the paper.
II. RELATED WORKS
A. Machine Learning
Machine Learning is one of the fastest growing fields in computer science [1]. It is a collection of statistical techniques for building mathematical models that can make inferences from data samples (known as a training set). Machine learning is a part of artificial intelligence: it must adapt itself to a changing environment.
Figure 1 roughly illustrates how to choose between the main categories of machine learning. There are three main types of learning [1]: (a) Supervised Learning, when the training set is labeled (i.e., it contains the attribute that the model is trying to estimate); (b) Unsupervised Learning, when the training set is not labeled, and (c) Reinforced Learning, when the learned results lead to actions that change the environment.
1https://github.com/mauro0x52/mlaas
M. Ribeiro, K. Grolinger, M.A.M Capretz, MLaaS: Machine Learning as a Service, International Conference on Machine Learning and Applications, 2015. c 2015 IEEE. Personal use of this material is permitted. Permission from IEEE must be obtained for all other uses, in any current or future media, including reprinting/republishing this material for advertising or promotional purposes, creating new collective works, for resale or redistribution to servers or lists, or reuse of any copyrighted component of this work in other works
Fig. 1: Machine learning methods categorization
The labels in supervised learning can be discrete or con-tinuous, which are handled by classification and regression algorithms respectively. Classification is used mostly for pre¬diction, pattern recognition and outlier detection, whereas regression is used for prediction and ranking. Unsupervised learning is known as density estimation in statistics and is represented mainly by clustering algorithms. Classification, regression and clustering are widely used in data mining (applications of machine learning to large databases), whereas reinforced learning is mostly used in decision-making prob¬lems (e.g., a computer playing chess).
Independently of the applications just described, machine learning techniques work in a similar way: the model learns from a training set and then becomes able to make inferences for a new data set. This abstraction inspires the creation of a generic architecture to support any machine learning algorithm. This paper will focus on regression predictive modeling, although the approach can be adapted for other algorithms.
In predictive modeling, once rules have been extracted from past data (the training set), the model can make accurate prediction for new instances of data (the predictor set) if the future is similar to the past. Spam filtering, investment risk and energy consumption forecasting are some examples of predictive modeling. Predictive modeling approaches in¬clude: Artificial Neural Networks for energy consumption [2], Support Vector Machines for energy consumption [2] and K-Nearest Neighbors for wind power [3].
Validation for predictive models has a twofold importance:
(a) choosing the most accurate algorithm and parameters; and
(b) estimating the expected error for new predictions [1]. Ac¬
curacy can be related with errors, which can be calculated by comparing the estimated results from the model with the real measured results. A popular and reliable validation technique for predictive models is the K-Fold Cross-Validation. The data set is split randomly into K parts of the same size. One of the K folds is used to calculate the errors using the other K¬1 folds to train the algorithm. The same process is repeated K times each time using different fold for validation. This method guarantees that the entire data set is validated with statistical significance.
Different models can perform better or worse, depending on the used algorithms, parameters and data set. However, there is no such a thing as the best learning algorithm [1]. For any algorithm, there are data sets that perform very accurately and others that perform very poorly. For the same data set, different algorithms can perform differently because of their own nature. MLaaS helps the user to run multiple algorithms and compare their performances, so the most suitable algorithm can be chosen.
B. Service Component Architecture
A service component architecture (SCA) [4] is a modeling specification for composing systems according to the princi¬ples of Service-Oriented Architecture (SOA).
SCA separates implementation concerns into three artifacts: (a) components implement its business function; (b) compos¬ites assemble various components together to create business solutions, and (c) services create an interface for remote access to component and composite functions. In a system, composites, services, and their relations with components are defined in a dynamic XML descriptor file.
Because SCA is built on top of SOA, it inherits all SOA’s advantages — for example, intrinsic interoperability, inherent reuse, simplified architecture and solutions, and organizational agility [5]. In addition, whereas SOA focuses on building an architecture to design individual components, SCA focuses on assembling multiple components into a composite and facilitating design, implementation, and deployment. SCA sys¬tems have been successfully used, for example, in geographic information systems [6] and smart home systems [7] [8].
This research aims to build a platform which is capable of providing various machine learning algorithms to build different predictive models which will run at the same time. Adding a new algorithm must be simple. The system must provide well-defined APIs which can be remotely accessed over the Web by any external system. SCA provides enough artifacts to meet these requirements.
C. Machine Learning as a Service (MLaaS)
The increasing demand for machine learning is leveraging the emergence of new solutions. In this section, various machine learning platforms are reviewed.
PredictionIO [9] was launched in 2013. It is an open-source platform with an architecture that integrates multiple machine learning processes into a distributed and horizontally scalable
system based on Hadoop. In addition, PredictionIO provides access through web APIs and graphical user interface (GUI).
Baldominos et al. [10] also proposed a platform built on top of Hadoop. Its implementation was capable of handling up to 30 requests at one time while maintaining a response time of less than one second.
OpenCPU [11] is another open-source platform, launched in 2014, that creates a Web API for R [12], a popular statistical analysis software environment. However, because it is practically a middleware for accessing R functions, it does not take into account many non-functional requirements like scalability and performance.
In the industry context, Google, Microsoft, and Amazon have been releasing their own proprietary platforms. Google released its Prediction API2 in 2014. Also in 2014, Microsoft launched Azure Machine Learning3. Most recently in 2015, Amazon released AWS Machine Learning4. Their sales can prove that the demand exists. Unfortunately, the designs and implementation specifications of these products are not pub¬licly available.
PredictionIO, OpenCPU, and Baldominos’ platforms are built on top of a specific analytical tools and suffer from its restrictions. This means less flexibility for adding new machine learning algorithms, for data storage, and for deployment. Although Hadoop and R are open-source projects, it is not a trivial challenge to adapt them to a new approach. The same happens with the industry players and their proprietary solutions when external developers cannot have access to the code to add new algorithms.
The MLaaS proposed in this paper focuses on predictive modeling. As an architecture based on SCA specifications, the architecture facilitates the addition of new algorithms, its improvement, and its adaptation to other machine learning applications. Even the revised platforms mentioned above can be attached to proposed architecture to build prediction models.
III. ARCHITECTURAL DESIGN
This section describes the proposed MLaaS architecture, which is designed to support machine learning by gathering data from multiple sources and building multiple models using different algorithms. The approach focuses on predictive modeling, but it is adaptable to other applications.
The scope of this architecture deals with the machine learning itself, ignoring the front-end aspects such as the user interface. In a Model-View-Controller (MVC) perspective, this architecture focus on the model layer while the controller and view layers are only implemented as part of the case study.
The SCA diagram in Figure 2 depicts a high level overview of the architecture.
The Modeler composite is responsible for building new predictive models. A predictive model is an instance of Modelµ composite, running a specific algorithm. The cardinality 0..N
2https://cloud.google.com/predictio
3http://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/services/machine-learning 4http://aws.amazon.com/pt/machine-learning
shows that MLaaS can run multiples instances of Model-µ composite at the same time, through the Build, Train, Test and Predict services. The model property shows that each instance can run with different settings.
The architecture works as follows: the Machine Learning as a Service composite receives raw data from data sources through its Send Training Set service. First, data are received and prepared by the Data Gatherer composite. The Modeler composite then receives the prepared data to train a Model¬µ instance. When receiving a predictor set from the Send Predictor Set service, the Model-µ instance calculates the prediction and serves it to external modules through the Get Prediction service.
The specified services provide well defined interfaces that increase the architecture’s flexibility to new inputs and outputs: the Send Training Set and Send Predictor Set services enable the inclusion of various data sources that will be merged by Data Gatherer; the Build, Train, Test and Predict consumers enable the architecture to be pluggable with different Model¬µ instances; and the Get Report, Get Test and Get Prediction services enable different user interfaces and external systems to consume the data.
The following subsections describe each of the composites shown in Figures 2 and 3.
A. Data Gatherer Composite
The Data Gatherer composite is responsible for receiving data, pre-processing it, and feeding it to the model. One instance is created for each Send Training Set, Send Test Set or Send Predictor Set services, so that they can run in parallel and independently. The Data Gatherer composite is made up of three components arranged in a pipeline as illustrated in Figure 3; they can be described as follows:
• The Merger component merges all received data (single data points or batches) from different data sources (e.g., sensors or databases). Data sets with different schema are joined into a single multicolumn schema by related at¬tributes (e.g., time-stamp for time-series data, categories, identifiers, etc). When finished, it forwards the data to the Outliers Remover component.
• The Outliers Remover component removes outliers (e.g., missing values, zeros, extremely high values, etc.). Once finished, it forwards the cleaned data to the Pre-Processor component.
• The Pre-Processor component modifies the data set by re-sampling, creating columns, getting the maximum, minimum, or average values, etc. When it is finished, it sends the pre-processed data to the destination component in the Modeler composite.
B. Modeler Composite
This is the core composite in the architecture, because it is responsible for building, training, testing, and running the Model-µ instances. It is made up of five components as illustrated in Figure 2, which can be described as follows:
Fig. 2: MLaaS architecture using SCA notation
Fig. 3: Data Gatherer composite
• The Builder component receives from Build Model the parameters (e.g., algorithm and property values) to build and deploy a new model (a Model-IL instance) for the Build consumer. When the instance is created, Builder sends the model identifier back to the consumer and forwards it to the Learner and Predictor components.
• The Learner component receives the pre-processed data from the Train service and forwards them to the destined Model-IL instance. When it receives the training report from the Model-IL instance through the Train consumer callback, it forwards it to Reports Storage.
• The Reports Storage component receives the report from the Learner component through the Store Report service and serves it to external consumers through the Get Report service.
• The Predictor component receives the predictor set from the Predict service and forwards it to the Model through the Predict consumer, which will return the prediction through a callback. The prediction will be returned to the Predict requester and also forwarded to Predictions Storage. Predictor is also responsible for forwarding the testing set.
• The Predictions Storage component receives and stores
the predictions and tests from the Store Prediction and Store Test services and provides them to external con¬sumers through the Get Prediction and Get Test services.
C. Model-IL Composite
The Model-IL composite is an architecture for building different models. It holds all the implemented algorithms source codes (e.g., Multilayer Perceptron), but only one must be loaded. The algorithm to be loaded and its parameters should be specified when calling the Build service. In other words, for each Build Model service request, a new instance of a Model-IL composite is created.
The model property describes how the model needs to be built and executed. It is composed of four sub-properties: modelId: is the model unique identifier, algorithm: specifies which algorithm is going to be used by the model, parameters: adjust the algorithm behavior, and k: the number of folds to use in the K-Fold Cross-Validation.
The Train, Test, and Predict service specifications enable the Modeler composite to interact with any Model-IL instance.
The Model-IL composite is made up of four components, which can be described as follows:
• The Constructor component is responsible for loading the right algorithm and setting the properties of the model in
stance using the Build service request parameters. When the instance is set up and running, it is ready to provide Train, Test and Predict services.
• The Trainer component receives the training set from the Train service and forwards it to Validator and Predictor components through the Validate and Train services re¬spectively. When validation is finished, the Trainer com¬ponent receives the validation report from the Validate service callback and returns it to the consumer through Train service callback.
• The Validator component receives the training set from the Validate service, feeds it to the model and validates the model (e.g., K-Fold Cross-Validation), returning a report.
• The Predictor component receives the training set from the Train service to feed the model for future prediction requests. When receiving predictor sets through the Pre¬dict service, it calculates and returns the predictions.
The implemented algorithms source code must be responsi¬ble only for training and predicting. Testing and validating do not depend on the algorithm itself, but on the results, which can be found by using the algorithm’s training and pre¬dicting functions. Therefore, testing and validating functions are responsibilities of Validator and Predictor components, increasing standardization and reducing the effort when adding a new algorithm.
IV. MLAAS PROCESS
The diagram in Figure 4 illustrates the main interaction flow between the Consumer, the Modeler and the Model-IL composites. To simplify, the earlier stage related to the Data Gatherer composite is ignored by assuming that data have already been pre-processed. The term Consumer in the following discussion refers to a generic consumer using the Modeler component.
The main flow is divided into three stages:
• Building: it starts with the Consumer requesting the Builder component to build a new model through the Build Model service. The Builder component will then create and configure a new Model-IL instance. When the building operation is complete, the Builder component sends the new model identifier to the Learner and Pre¬dictor components and to the Consumer.
• Training: the Consumer is now able to train the instan¬tiated model. It sends the already pre-processed training set to the Learner component through the Train service, which will forward the training set to the Trainer com¬ponent of the Model-IL instance. The Trainer component will make two requests at the same time: one to the Validator component to validate the model (e.g., K-Fold Cross-Validation) and another to the Predictor compo¬nent to be trained for future prediction requests. When validation is complete, the Validator component responds to Trainer component with the validation report, which contains information such as error measurements. The
Predictor
Fig. 4: Communication flow for the three machine learning stages
report will be stored into Reports Storage component for future retrievals.
• Predicting: the model is ready to predict. The Consumer sends the predictor set to the Modeler composite’s Pre¬dictor component, which will forward to the Model-IL instance’s Predictor component, where the prediction is calculated and returned to the Modeler. The predictions are sent to the Predictions Storage to be stored and served.
In Training and Predicting stages, the Consumer receives the report and prediction identifiers as soon as the Learner and Predictor components receive the request, so it is not necessary to keep the connection while the entire request is be processed. When the report or prediction is ready, it can be accessed from Reports Storage and Predictions Storage components, using the specific identifier.
A Training Stage can also be considered and works similarly to the Predicting Stage. The main difference is the final result, which contains testing information such as errors.
V. CASE STUDY
The goal of this case study is to forecast energy demand based on past electricity demand data data for an office build¬ing, using different machine learning algorithms and finding the best-performing one. This experiment focuses mainly on the Modeler and Model-IL composites.
The proposed architecture was implemented using elec-tricity demand data from Powersmiths’ office building, in Brampton, ON, Canada. The data set were pre-processed before feeding them to the system. This data set was made up of 13 daily attributes: the energy demand peak, six weather attributes and six time attributes. The six weather attributes were: maximum temperature, minimum temperature, average temperature, maximum humidity, minimum humidity and av¬erage humidity. The six time attributes were: year, month (from 1 to 12), day of the month (from 1 to 31), day of the year (from 0 to 365), weekDay (from 0 for Sunday to 6 for Saturday) and dayType (0 for a business day, 1 for a weekend and 2 for a holiday).
The system was built using Node.js because of its ease and agility for coding and deploying Web services and handling JSON. Because there are currently no SCA frameworks for Node.js, one had to be implemented. JSON was used for Web service communication, data storage and the SCA artifact descriptor file. A simple user interface was developed to generate effective illustrations of the results obtained.
The source code is available in a public repository 5.
A. Algorithms
To evaluate the architectural flexibility of running different machine learning models at the same time, Model-IL composite was implemented to support the following algorithms:
• Multi-Layer Perceptron (MLP): one of the most used techniques when evaluating machine learning models, and one of the most used for electrical consumption problems [2]. It was implemented using the Synaptic package6.
• Support Vector Regression (SVR): also one of the most used techniques for electrical consumption problems [2]. It was implemented using the Node-SVM package7.
•K-Nearest Neighbors (KNN): easy to understand, to code, and to debug. This algorithm was coded for this experi¬ment.
A generic Algorithm class was coded under object-oriented programming structure, defining the standard interface for train and predict function calls. A new algorithm can be implemented simply by inheriting the Algorithm class and making minor adaptations. In this case study, the KNN Al¬gorithm class was implemented first to test and validate the Model-IL composite. Later, using the same code structure, MLP Algorithm and SVR Algorithm classes were coded and imported into Model-IL composite.
5https://github.com/mauro0x52/mlaas
6http://synaptic.juancazala.com
7https://github.com/nicolaspanel/node-svm
When a Model-IL instance is built, the algorithm with the parameters (both specified in the model property) is loaded.
The test and validate functions are performed by Predictor and Validation components respectively, and not by the Algo¬rithm class. Both functions use the results from Algorithm’s train and predict calls.
The Validator component implements de K-Fold Cross-Validation method to validate the model, calculating the mean absolute errors and the mean square errors. The number of folds K can be defined to the model property when building a new model.
The architectural design and the dynamic artifacts descriptor file make it possible to create new Model-IL instances dynam¬ically. After the new Model-IL instance is deployed and the artifacts descriptor file is updated, the new Model-IL instance will be available without the need to recompile or restart the system.
B. Results
Three different models were created by instantiating the Model-IL composite. Table I shows the parameters used for each model. The models were requested to predict using a test set, which contains all the 13 attributes including the real measured daily electricity demand peaks. For the K-Fold Cross-Validation, K = 10 was fixed for all the models. The models were also requested to run a prediction using a different predictor set.
Figure 5 shows a screenshot of the MLaaS graphical user interface (GUI). Through the navigation bar, the user can access models (list, create and remove), train, test and predict models and consult a graphical summary of the results. The first row of charts shows the validation performance, with three graphics showing the mean absolute errors, mean square errors, and the execution time for each of the three models. The second row shows the test performance, comparing the mean absolute errors, mean square errors, and execution time for the three models. The third row is a chart comparing the three models’ test results with the real measured data from the test set. Finally, the last row shows the results of a prediction.
TABLE I: Model Parameters
Algorithm Parameter Value
k 10
KNN
max distance 2
nodes per layer 12, 14, 1
learning rate 0.1
MLP
max iterations 1000
min error 0.0001
gamma 0.125, 0.5, 1
c 8, 16, 32
SVR
epsilon 0.001, 0.125, 0.5
retained variance 0.995
Fig. 5: MLaaS screenshot comparing KNN, MLP, and SVR.
The SVR model showed better accuracy – it had the lowest mean absolute errors and mean square errors – both in validation and in testing. Although the KNN model had better accuracy in validation than the MLP model, it had the worse mean square error in testing.
The KNN model performed much faster during validation and could finish executing even while the SVR and MLP mod¬els were still running. The SVR model finished the validation last. On the other hand, during testing, MLP model finished first and KNN model was the last. In other words, one model’s processing did not block the CPU as it would have on a single-threaded server.
VI. CONCLUSIONS
With the growing amount of data available, companies and researchers are demanding feasible and affordable ways to
extract knowledge from all this data. This paper has presented a novel architecture for a scalable, flexible, and non-blocking machine learning as a service based on SCA and focusing on predictive modeling. The proposed architecture can support multiple data sources and create various models with different algorithms, parameters, and training sets.
To prove the concept, the system was built to predict electricity demand using real-world data. Once the main architecture is working and at least one algorithm coded, it is simple to implement other algorithms. It is possible to execute multiple models concurrently.
For future research, MLaaS can be adapted to machine learning applications other than predictive modeling, for ex¬ample, pattern recognition, outlier detection, ranking and clus¬tering.
ACKNOWLEDGE
This research was supported in part by an NSERC CRD at Western University (CRDPJ 453294-13). Additionally, the authors would like to acknowledge the support provided by Powersmiths.
REFERENCES
[1] E. Alpaydin, Introduction to machine learning. MIT press, 2014.
[2] a. S. Ahmad, M. Y. Hassan, M. P. Abdullah, H. a. Rahman, F. Hussin, H. Abdullah, and R. Saidur, “A review on applications of ANN and SVM for building electrical energy consumption forecasting,” Renewable and Sustainable Energy Reviews, vol. 33, pp. 102–109, 2014. [Online]. Available: http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.rser.2014.01.069
[3] M. Yesilbudak, S. Sagiroglu, and I. Colak, “A new approach to very short term wind speed prediction using k-nearest neighbor classification,” Energy Conversion and Management, vol. 69, pp. 77–86, 2013.
[4] Service Component Architecture Assembly Model Specification Version 1.1. Accessed: 30-04-2015. [Online]. Available: http://docs.oasis-open. org/opencsa/sca-assembly/sca-assembly-1.1-spec-cd03.html
[5] T. Erl, Service-Oriented Architecture: Concepts, Technology, and De¬sign. Pearson Education India, 2005.
[6] F.-C. Lin, L.-K. Chung, W.-Y. Ku, L.-R. Chu, and T.-Y. Chou, “Service component architecture for geographic information system in cloud computing infrastructure,” in Advanced Information Networking and Applications (AINA), 2013 IEEE 27th International Conference on. IEEE, 2013, pp. 368–373.
[7] T. Calmant, J. C. Am´erico, D. Donsez, and O. Gattaz, “A dynamic sca-based system for smart homes and offices,” in Service-Oriented Computing-ICSOC 2012 Workshops. Springer, 2013, pp. 435–438.
[8] C.-C. Lo, D.-Y. Chen, and K.-M. Chao, “Dynamic data driven smart home system based on a service component architecture,” in Computer Supported Cooperative Work in Design (CSCWD), 2010 14th Interna¬tional Conference on. IEEE, 2010, pp. 473–478.
[9] S. Chan, T. Stone, K. P. Szeto, and K. H. Chan, “PredictionIO: a distributed machine learning server for practical software development,” in Proceedings of the 22nd ACM international conference on Conference on information & knowledge management. ACM, 2013, pp. 2493–2496.
[10] A. Baldominos, E. Albacete, Y. Saez, and P. Isasi, “A scalable machine learning online service for big data real-time analysis,” in Computational Intelligence in Big Data (CIBD), 2014 IEEE Symposium on. IEEE, 2014, pp. 1–8.
[11] J. Ooms, “The OpenCPU System: Towards a Universal Interface for Scientific Computing through Separation of Concerns,” arXiv:1406.4806, no. 2000, pp. 1–23, 2014. [Online]. Available: http://arxiv.org/abs/1406.4806
[12] R Core Team, R: A Language and Environment for Statistical Computing, R Foundation for Statistical Computing, Vienna, Austria, 2013, ISBN 3-900051-07-0. [Online]. Available: http://www.R-project. org/
DISSERTATION POLICIES & PROCEDURES
This document presents the various steps involved in arriving at a finished dissertation, from forming a committee, to writing and defending the proposal, to making changes (if necessary) to the dissertation’s contents and to the constitution of the committee, all the way to composing and defending the dissertation.
I. COMMITTEE
A. General
By the end of the Autumn Quarter of his or her Fourth Year in the graduate program, a student is to assemble a dissertation committee.
The student is to constitute a committee with expertise appropriate to the chosen field of study and, in so doing, he or she should solicit advice from a broad range of faculty.
In particular, students should consider and consult with faculty members who have published or taught seminars devoted to topics or figures that are central to a student’s selected field of study regarding the composition of an appropriate dissertation committee.
In addition, students should also consider and commit to developing an ongoing rapport with the members of the committee that is founded on substantive constructive critique and development.
The formation of the committee is to be the result of a consensus of all those involved.
B. Composition
The dissertation committee will consist minimally of three members, all of whom must be permanent, full-time members of the DePaul's Department of Philosophy. A director, or sometimes two co-directors, must be stipulated. Other members of DePaul faculties, or philosophers and scholars from outside the University, whose expertise is pertinent to the topic of the dissertation, may serve as extra readers upon the consent of the dissertation director(s) and the Director of Graduate Studies.
At least one of the Director(s) of the committee must be a tenured (Associate Professor or Professor) member of the Department of Philosophy. However, where the subject matter of the dissertation project warrants an untenured faculty member serving as the Director, the student may petition the Graduate Affairs Committee for an exception to this requirement.
The Readers may be tenured or untenured members of the Department of Philosophy.
Where the subject matter of the dissertation project warrants, and with the approval of the dissertation Director, the third Reader may be a faculty member from another department or from another institution.
C. Committee Responsibilities
The responsibilities of the dissertation committee are to advise the student on the formulation of an appropriate research topic and plan, assess the student’s relevant skills (e.g., language preparation, current knowledge of the field, etc.), and review the progress of the student’s ongoing research.
In pursuit of these obligations, the committee, under the guidance of the dissertation Director, shall assist the student in preparing a Dissertation Proposal and, when agreed, shall conduct an oral defense of the proposal (see section entitled Proposal for all requirements concerning the proposal).
Once the proposal has been successfully defended, the student is to prepare and submit a brief report of research progress to the entire dissertation committee once a year, corresponding with the Graduate Student Reviews (and the
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document should be included with the review documents). This report is to be between 300 and 900 words and it is to describe both the work accomplished since the preceding submission and that which is projected to be completed in the foreseeable future. It may also include any issues or problems that have arisen in the course of conducting research or in writing.
When the student and the committee agree that the project is complete, the dissertation committee shall conduct a public, oral defense of the dissertation (see Dissertation Policies and Procedures, Section III. Dissertation for requirements concerning the dissertation).
Throughout the entire process, the committee shall have the authority, under the guidance of the dissertation Director, to require supplemental research as well as the revision or rewriting of any portion or of all of the Dissertation Proposal or of the dissertation itself.
D. Constitution
Once the dissertation committee has been agreed upon, the student is to submit a Dissertation Committee Constitution Form to the Director of Graduate Studies for review and possible comment by the Graduate Affairs Committee. A student making reasonable progress through the program will have defended his or her proposal by the end of his or her Fourth Year, and by the very latest by the Winter Quarter of his or her Fifth Year.
The Dissertation Committee Constitution Form should be submitted, with the signatures of all committee members, at least two weeks prior to the projected date of the proposal defense. As stated on the form, the student should also submit at this time an approx. 200 word précis of the dissertation project (a short summary of the projected dissertation's main thesis and argument, including the central figures and texts it will cover), as well as a brief chapter outline. Once it has been submitted, the Director of Graduate Studies will distribute the materials to the Graduate Affairs Committee, solicit its feedback, and communicate to the student and his or her dissertation Director any suggestions or advice about the committee or about the execution of the project that the Graduate Affairs Committee may have..
The Graduate Affairs Committee will then register the dissertation committee and finalized form and, upon the completion of this process, the dissertation committee will be officially constituted.
E. Changes to a Constituted Committee
In unusual and rare circumstances, the composition of the dissertation committee may be changed:
a. Changes in Readers
Should either a student or a Director come to believe that a Reader serving on a duly constituted dissertation committee is no longer participating in the work of the committee in a constructive critical fashion or that the focus of the project has changed such that the Reader is no longer deemed, by the student or a Director, to be best suited for the project, then the Director, in consultation with the student, is to seek to mediate and resolve any differences.
If a genuine effort has been made to affect this result, but to no avail, then the dissertation Director is to notify the Director of Graduate Studies in writing that a change in the composition of the dissertation committee is desired, providing an explanation for this action, and submitting a replacement candidate.
Should a Reader serving on a duly constituted dissertation committee come to believe that he or she is no longer able to participate in the work of the committee in a constructive critical fashion or that the focus of the project has changed such that he or she is no longer best suited for the project, then the Director, in consultation with the student, is to seek to mediate and resolve any differences.
If a genuine effort has been made to affect this result, but to no avail, then the dissertation Director is to notify the Director of Graduate Studies in writing that a change in the composition of the dissertation committee is desired, providing an explanation for this action, and submitting a replacement candidate.
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The Director of Graduate Studies is to report any of these changes to the Graduate Affairs Committee for review and, where the Committee deems appropriate, any advice about the change will be communicated to the Director and the student.
In those cases where the committee member in question is also a member of the Graduate Affairs Committee, the faculty member must recuse him- or herself from the discussions of the Committee as it reviews the notice.
After any desired consultation by the Graduate Affairs Committee with the dissertation Director, the new composition of the committee will be registered and considered official.
In this situation, the student and the committee may continue his or her work from where it had been suspended. b. Changes in Director
i. Student Initiated
Should a student change the focus of their research or come to believe that the Director is not participating in the work of the committee in a constructive critical fashion or that the relationship between the student and the Director has become unworkable, then the student may request that the Director of Graduate Studies and the Chair of the Department seek to mediate and resolve any differences.
If the dissertation Director is also the Director of Graduate Studies or the Chair of the Department, then the Director must recuse him- or herself from this process. The other administrative officer is then solely in charge of the mediation process.
If a genuine effort has been made to affect this result, but to no avail, then the student is to notify the Director of Graduate Studies in writing that a change of Director is desired, providing an explanation for this action, and submitting a replacement candidate.
The Director of Graduate Studies is to report this change to the Graduate Affairs Committee for review and, where the Committee deems appropriate, any advice about the change will be communicated to the Director and the student.
In those cases where the dissertation Director in question is also a member of the Graduate Affairs Committee, the faculty member must recuse him- or herself from the deliberations of the Committee as it reviews the notice.
After any desired consultation by the Graduate Affairs Committee with the student, the new composition of the committee will be registered and considered official.
In this situation, the previously constituted committee is considered dissolved and the student must begin the process of assembling a new committee again, including preparing and defending a Dissertation Proposal under the guidance of the new Director and the newly constituted committee.
ii. Director Initiated
Should a Director come to believe that he or she cannot participate in the work of the committee in a
constructive critical fashion or that the relationship with the student or other committee members has become unworkable or that the focus of the project has shifted so significantly that he or she believes that he or she is no longer the best faculty member suited to direct the project, then the Director may request that the Director of Graduate Studies and the Chair of the Department seek to mediate and resolve any differences.
If the dissertation Director is also the Director of Graduate Studies or the Chair of the Department, then the Director must recuse him- or herself from this process. The other administrative officer is then solely in charge of the mediation process.
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If a genuine effort has been made to affect this result, but to no avail, then the Director may notify the Director of Graduate Studies in writing that a change of Director is desired, providing an explanation for this action.
The Director of Graduate Studies is to report this change to the Graduate Affairs Committee for review and, where the Committee deems appropriate, any advice about the change will be communicated to the Director and the student.
In those cases where the dissertation Director in question is also a member of the Graduate Affairs Committee, the faculty member must recuse him- or herself from the deliberations of the Committee as it reviews the notice.
After any desired consultation by the Graduate Affairs Committee with the Director, the committee will be considered officially dissolved.
In this situation, the student must begin the process of assembling a new committee, including preparing and defending a Dissertation Proposal under the guidance of the new Director and the newly constituted committee.
c. Departure of Faculty Member from the Department
In the event that either the Director or a Reader leaves the department, he or she may, if willing and able, continue to serve on a duly constituted dissertation committee for up to one year after the end of his or her employment at DePaul. After which time, he or she may serve as an outside reader only. According to the already articulated policies regarding a change in director, this requires another official proposal and official defense. However, this requirement can be waived at the discretion of the new director.
II. PROPOSAL
Ideally, the dissertation proposal should be defended by the Winter Quarter of the Fourth Year, but in any case no later than the Winter Quarter of the Fifth Year. The student should speak with his or her Director concerning the aims, format, and length of the proposal. Different Directors will ask for different elements in the proposal, and there may even be requirements that are specific to a given project or student.
That being said, the following are some general guidelines concerning dissertation proposals.
A. The Aims of the Proposal
The dissertation proposal has two basic aims, as it relates to its two audiences—i.e., the student’s committee members and the student him- or herself during the subsequent research and writing of the thesis.
On the one hand, from the proposal, the committee should come to understand very clearly the following five things:
(1) the basic issue or question to be addressed in the dissertation;
(2) the method that will be employed to address the issue;
(3) a table of contents or chapter outline, presenting in some detail the contents of each chapter;
(4) the scope that will be covered by the project;
(5) the current state of the question in relevant scholarly discussion; and
(6) the precise contribution the project will make to that discussion.
On the basis of these six pieces of information, the committee will be able to evaluate the intellectual merit, the viability, and the marketability of the proposed dissertation project.
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On the other hand, the successful dissertation proposal will also serve to direct the student in his or her execution of the project. Because of the length of time over which this project must be carried out, this is an extremely important function of the proposal. The student will likely return to the proposal again and again, both to touch base with the original intention and structure of the project, as well as to make self-conscious alterations, additions, and subtractions to that project. The student should, thus, construct the proposal accordingly, keeping in mind that it will have to serve this vital, orienting function during the writing process.
B. Elements and Format of the Proposal
Although, as mentioned above, the elements required in a proposal may well differ to some extent according to the Director, the student, and even the project itself, a typical dissertation proposal will accomplish the above-stated purposes by including the following elements:
• Brief Abstract
The abstract should be approximately 200-350 words. It should summarize the thesis and main argument of the project.
• Outline
The outline should include all of the main steps of the argument, though not every single step. It should be clear from this what each chapter accomplishes as a unit, what it contributes to the argument, and why it contains the subsections it does.
• Summary Presentation
The summary of the entire project should be approximately 4500-6000 words. It should lay out, in clear terms, the single, unifying claim that the dissertation will make, situating that claim both in the broader philosophical discussion and clarifying the argument, chapter by chapter, that will be set out in support of it.
As stated above, the proposal should be sure to make perfectly clear, (1) the basic issue or question to be addressed in the dissertation; (2) the method that will be employed to address the issue; (3) the scope that will be covered by the project; (4) the current state of the question in relevant scholarly discussion; and (5) the precise contribution that this project will make to that discussion.
• Bibliography
The bibliography should include full bibliographic data for all primary and main secondary sources that the student anticipates using in the course of his or her research on the project.
As with the basic plan of the dissertation, this initial bibliography will surely change during the researching and writing according to the specific exigencies and interests of the student’s project. However, at this point, the student must show that he or she is familiar with all the most important and central works pertaining to this subject.
C. The Proposal Defense
Once the proposal has been written, it should be reviewed by the Director and by all members of the committee.
Once the members have had the opportunity to request any changes or clarifications, a defense is to be scheduled in which the committee and the student will come together to assess the merit and viability of the project.
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The student is to submit the final draft of the proposal to all members of his or her committee at least 2 weeks prior to the meeting, unless otherwise directed.
At the defense, the student will generally give a 10-minute summary presentation of the project, reviewing its central aim, argument, and contribution to the scholarly discussion.
The members of the committee will then ask questions and raise issues that they believe remain outstanding concerning the project. The student is required to address these concerns to the full satisfaction of the committee.
The proposal defense will typically last between 1.5 and 2 hours.
At its conclusion, the committee will determine whether or not the project is defined sufficiently to begin work on it, whether it is worthy of pursuing, and whether it can be completed in an acceptable time-span (between 2-5 years).
If the judgment is positive, the committee will sign off on the project and the student may begin work.
If outstanding issues remain in the judgment of the committee, then the student will be required to revise the proposal before the committee signs the required forms, and if the committee decides that there are serious reservations about the project or the student’s ability to complete it, the student will be required to propose again and would then undergo another proposal defense.
III. DISSERTATION
A. The Completed Dissertation
The dissertation should be approximately 200-275 pages, including scholarly apparatus. The length of the dissertation will depend on the demands of the topic and should be determined in discussion with the dissertation Director. Ideally the defense should take place at the end of the Sixth Year but no later than the end of the Tenth Year. Exceptions will be granted on a case-by-case basis.
B. The Dissertation Defense
i. Planning of the Defense
Once the dissertation has been written, it should be submitted to the Director, whose approval is necessary for the setting of a defense date. This approval does not guarantee that the Director will vote for the dissertation’s passing at the defense but it does imply that the Director deems the dissertation ready to be judged by the entire committee. The dissertation Director might call for revisions prior to the setting of a dissertation defense. All other degree requirements (course work, language exams, etc.) must be met prior to the setting of the defense date.
Before setting a date, either the Director or the graduate student in consultation with the Director should consult with the other members of the committee, ensuring that they are available to read the dissertation and participate in the defense (this participation can be electronic although it is not recommended that more than one committee member participate electronically). If a committee member can participate neither in person nor electronically, comments can be sent to the Chair ahead of time (only one such absent member is permitted).
The committee should be given at least a month to read the dissertation. The graduate student must submit the dissertation electronically to the committee members by the agreed upon date.
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ii. Format of the Defense
The defense is typically 2 -2.5 hours long. It is a public event and should be announced to the entire philosophy department.
The defense begins with a 5-10 minute statement from the graduate student, offering a brief summary of the project and, typically, some comments about future research that will follow from it. This statement has a dual audience, both the committee and other attendees who may not have read the dissertation. The defense will then proceed with each committee member asking questions of the graduate student. The order of the speakers will be decided by the Director, with the Director typically going last. The Director will also decide whether committee members can ask follow up questions to each other’s questions or whether they should complete their comments before another member joins in. Once all committee members have completed their remarks, the floor should be opened for other defense attendees to ask questions.
Once all questions have been asked or the time limits have been reached, the Director will conclude the discussion and the committee members will begin their private deliberations. The committee then votes, with a majority needed for any outcome (see below for possible outcomes). If there are 4 committee members a tie is not sufficient to determine any given outcome, so a majority vote must be negotiated. If a committee member is unable to participate, and so has sent in comments, a vote should be submitted ahead of time to the Director.
iii. Possible Outcomes
There are five possible outcomes:
a. the dissertation can be passed
b. it can be passed with honors
c. it can be passed with the need for revisions
d. the committee can ask for revisions needed for further review, prior to a decision being made on whether it will be passed
e. it can be failed without the possibility of revisions
Once the committee’s deliberations are completed, the members sign the Dissertation Defense Form, and then they announce the result to the graduate student.
If the committee has either passed the dissertation or a passed it with honors (a or b), the student should follow the procedures outlined by the LAS Graduate Office for its electronic submission, and graduation (http://las.depaul.edu/CurrentStudents/GradStudentSupport/index.asp). This includes submitting a dissertation abstract. The dissertation Director should change the student’s PHL 699, Dissertation Research course grade from an incomplete to an A.
If the dissertation has been passed with revisions required (c), the revisions should be completed within a year and the revised dissertation submitted to the Director, whose approval is required before it can be submitted to the college. If revisions are required prior to a decision being made on whether the dissertation passes (d), the revised dissertation should be submitted to the Director and the other members of the committee within a year. The committee will review the revised dissertation and will, in a timely fashion, meet and judge the work (all 5 outcomes are once again possible). Only one attempt at a revision is allowed. If the attempted revision is rejected by the committee, this entails option (e) above.
If the dissertation is failed (e), and it should be noted that this is a rare occurrence, the student should meet with his or her Director in order to decide whether further work on the dissertation can bring it
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into line with the committee’s expectations. This would require a further dissertation defense. Only one further defense is allowed.
While the decision of the committee is made independently, any concerns that the graduate student might have should be brought to the Director of Graduate Studies (or to the Chair if the Director of Graduate Studies is on the committee; if both are on the committee such concerns can be brought to any other member of the Graduate Affairs Committee) who can relay them to the Graduate Affairs Committee.
iv. Celebrations
The department recommends that all successful dissertation defenses be appropriately celebrated, although, unfortunately, there are no department funds available.
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Proof of identity (currently residing overseas)29. Justice of the Peace, Commonwealth Representative, Judge or Commission of Oath to complete
is section s ould only be com leted if you are living overseas i.e. you are outside of e ealand at t e time of com leting t is form. It needs to be com leted by eit er a udge (of the country’s judicial system), ustice of t e Peace, Commission of Oat Common ealt Re resentative mbassador/Hig Commission , or any erson aut orised by la of t at country outside of e ealand to administer an oath for t e ur ose
of udicial roceedings. e Proof of Identity referee will certify the applicant’s identity by completing this section of the form. e a licant is not
re uired to rovide any certified co ies of t e identification documents to t e Education Council unless re uested.
Name of applicant (print full name) dk
ic t e t o forms of identification resented to you in erson. One form of identification must be from Category and one must
be from Category (refer to the table below). t least one of t e acce table forms of identification documents must be
otogra ic. ot documents must be originals. e a licant must be t e resenter of t e documents.
Category A Tick Category B Tick
Overseas Pass ort it or
immigration visa/ ermit it out e ealand Overseas Drivers icence
e ealand Pass ort e ealand Drivers icence
ational Police Certificate issued in t e last 6 mont s
by t e Country t e a licant as been residing in for
more t an 6 mont s
Identification documents resented to you in erson by t e a licant must be from t e list in t e above table one document from Category and one document from Category . e documents must be originals, current and not e ired and issued by an
aut orised agency as outlined in t e Com letion uide. If a licable, ere names or ot er identity information are different on eit er document Category and , lease confirm you ave sig ted acce table evidence of name c ange a e ealand Marriage Certificate is acce table but a Particulars of Marriage document is not . See Completion Guide for more information and t e full list of acce table identification documents. Please rovide details in t e s aces belo about t e identification documents you ave verified.
Document name Document number Issue date (if applicable) Expiry date (if applicable)
Category A
Category B
Name change
(if applicable)
Please confirm that you are one of the following (tick one)
Judge (of the country’s judicial system)
ustice of t e Peace
Commission of Oat Common ealt Re resentative mbassador/Hig Commission
erson aut orised by la of t at country to administer
an oat for t e ur ose of udicial roceedings. Please record your actual title:
ame of identity referee:
rint full name
ddress:
You must apply an official stamp or seal below.
Email address:
Contact number:
I declare that (Identity referee please tick)
I ave sig ted t o forms of identification one from Category and one from Category
and I verify t at t e erson in t e oto is t e erson ose name is rinted in full above.
Name Change: I ave sig ted evidence of t e name c ange (if applicable).
Identity referee’s signature Date / /
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Level 12, 80 Boulcott Street PO Box 5326
Page of 1 of 2 Wellington 6011 Wellington 6145
enquiries@educationcouncil.org.nz Telephone: (04) 471 0852
Completing proof of identity section (currently residing overseas)
e Education Council re uires t e Proof of Identity referee to be eit er a Judge of the country’s judicial system, a ustice of t e Peace, Commission of Oat , Common ealt Re resentative mbassador/Hig Commission or any erson aut orised by la of t at Country to administer an oath for t e ur ose of udicial roceedings.
The identity referee must:
• verify t e t o forms of identification re uired in t is section one from Category and one from Category of ic one form of identification must be otogra ic
• verify t at t e a licant o must also be t e resenter of t e identification documents, is t e same erson as identified in t e document from Category and Category
• com lete all sections of t e form and a ly your official stam or seal
• not be related to, or be a artner or s ouse to t e a licant
• not reside at t e same address as t e a licant Identification verification:
• e a licant must rovide in erson t o forms of identification documents to be certified by an acce table roof of identity referee. ese must be original documents.
• ey must include one Primary identification document/record and one Secondary identification document record issued by an a roved agency. See Category and in t e table belo .
• One identification document from eit er Category or must be otogra ic
Category A: Primary identification document/record Issuing agency
e ealand Pass ort De artment of Internal ffairs
Overseas ass ort it or
immigration visa/ ermit it out e ealand Relevant ut ority in country of issue visa/ ermit to be
issued by t e Ministry of usiness, Innovation and
Em loyment Immigration e ealand
Overseas ass ort Relevant ut ority in country of issue
Category B: Secondary identification document/record Issuing agency
e ealand Driver icence e ealand rans ort gency
Overseas Driver’s Licence Relevant ut ority in country of issue
ational Police Certificate issued in t e last 6 mont s by t e
Country t e a licant as been residing in for more t an 6
mont s
Evidence of name change or other changes to identity information
It is im ortant t at t e evidence of identity resented to t e identity referee covers all identity information rovided in t e sections of t e a lication form under t e eadings of Personal details, Applicant declaration and Proof of Identity.
If t e identity documentation t at you rovide to t e identity referee s o s t at t ere is a difference in t e name or ot er as ects in t e identity related information t at t ose documents ere issued under, you ill need to rovide to t e identity referee evidence from t e table belo in Category C to verify t e difference. or e am le if t e document t at you rovide to t e identity
referee from Category as issued under a name t at is different from t e name t at t e document you rovide from Category
, you ill need to rovide a document from Category C t at verifies t at difference in name for bot documents. ote: If t ere are inconsistencies across t e identification documents or identity verification you ave rovided to t e Education Council, you may be as ed to rovide furt er information.
Category C: Evidence of name Change Issuing agency
C ange of ame by Statutory Declaration De artment of Internal ffairs
C ange of ame by Deed Poll De artment of Internal ffairs
e ealand ame C ange Certificate De artment of Internal ffairs
e ealand Marriage Certificate not a Particulars of Marriage document De artment of Internal ffairs
e ealand Civil nion Certificate De artment of Internal ffairs
e ealand irt Certificate issued after 1998 De artment of Internal ffairs
e ealand Divorce Pa ers Ministry of ustice
Certificate of nnulment Ministry of ustice
Overseas Pass ort – must be current Relevant ut ority in country of issue
Overseas irt Certificate or Marriage Certificate Relevant ut ority in country of issue
POI Overseas (Version 2016-08-26) Physical Address: Postal Address:
Level 12, 80 Boulcott Street PO Box 5326
Page of 2 of 2 Wellington 6011 Wellington 6145
enquiries@educationcouncil.org.nz Telephone: (04) 471 0852
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CAMPAIGN CODE
1 SEWARD PENINSULA FEDERAL SUBSISTENCE
2 REGIONAL ADVISORY COUNCIL MEETING
3
4 PUBLIC MEETING
5
6
7 VOLUME I
8
9 Aurora Inn
10 Nome, Alaska
11 February 15, 2011
12 8:41 a.m.
13
14 Members Present:
15
16 Michael Quinn, Acting Chairman
17 Peter Buck
18 Fred Eningowuk
19 Anthony Keyes
20 Peter Martin
21 Elmer Seetot
22 Tim Smith
23
24
25 Regional Council Coordinator - Alex Nick
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39
40
41
42 Recorded and transcribed by:
43
44 Computer Matrix Court Reporters, LLC
45 135 Christensen Drive, Suite 2
46 Anchorage, AK 99501
47 907-243-0668/907-227-5312
48 sahile@gci.net
1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2
3 (Nome, Alaska - 2/15/2011)
4
5 (On record)
6
7 CHAIRMAN QUINN: I'm going to call
8
9 REPORTER: Mike. Mike.
10
11 MR. BUCK: Mic.
12
13 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Could you just sit
14 right next to me?
15
16 REPORTER: I could. I could. Just
17 leave it on, Mike.
18
19 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Okay.
20
21 REPORTER: You can leave yours on, then
22 you don't have to worry about it, everyone else, on and
23 off.
24
25 (Laughter)
26
27 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Well, who's here from
28 OSM besides you, Alex?
29
30 MR. NICK: Tom.
31
32 CHAIRMAN QUINN: You are?
33
34 MR. KRON: Tom Kron with OSM.
35
36 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Okay.
37
38 MS. BROWN: Cole Brown from OSM.
39
40 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Oh, I haven't seen you
41 in so long I didn't recognize you.
42
43 MS. BROWN: And I just chopped my hair.
44
45 (Laughter)
46
47 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Yeah, me, too.
48
49 (Laughter)
50
2
1 CHAIRMAN QUINN: All right, 8:41 or so.
2 Let's officially call
3
4 (Laughter)
5
6 CHAIRMAN QUINN: the meeting to
7 order. Let's see, do you want
8
9 MR. NICK: Mr. Chair, I can do the
10 roll.
11
12 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Okay, Alex, you do the
13 roll.
14
15 MR. NICK: Anthony Keyes.
16
17 MR. KEYES: Present.
18
19 MR. NICK: Peter Buck.
20
21 MR. BUCK: Here.
22
23 MR. NICK: Louis H. Green, Jr.
24
25 (No comments)
26
27 MR. NICK: Mr. Chair. I understand Mr.
28 Green will be participating on line today.
29
30 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Okay.
31
32 MR. NICK: Tom L. Gray.
33
34 (No comments)
35
36 MR. NICK: Mr. Chair.
37
38 CHAIRMAN QUINN: He's excused.
39
40 MR. NICK: Tom Gray needed to be
41 excused because he's traveling out of town and he'll be
42 participating in the meeting tomorrow.
43
44 Peter Martin.
45
46 MR. MARTIN: Here.
47
48 MR. NICK: Weaver Ivanoff.
49
50 (No comments)
3
1 MR. NICK: Mr. Chair. Weaver is not -
2 unable to participate.
3
4 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Yes.
5
6 MR. NICK: Fred D. Eningowuk.
7
8 MR. ENINGOWUK: Here.
9
10 MR. NICK: Elmer Seetot, Jr.
11
12 MR. SEETOT: Here.
13
14 MR. NICK: Michael Quinn.
15
16 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Here.
17
18 MR. NICK: Timothy Edwin Smith.
19
20 (No comments)
21
22 MR. NICK: Mr. Chair. Tim should be
23 here shortly, hopefully.
24
25 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Okay.
26
27 MR. NICK: You have a quorum.
28
29 CHAIRMAN QUINN: All right, well, then
30 welcome everybody to the meeting. I'm a little
31 disappointed there aren't more people here.
32
33 Let's see, introductions. All right,
34 so Mr. Martin, we'll start with you and we'll go around
35 the room.
36
37 MR. MARTIN: Peter Martin
38
39 REPORTER: Peter.
40
41 MR. MARTIN: Peter Martin, Jr.,
42 Stebbins.
43
44 MR. KEYES: Anthony Keyes from Wales.
45
46 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Mike Quinn, Nome.
47
48 MR. ENINGOWUK: Fred Eningowuk,
49 Shishmaref.
50
4
1 MR. SEETOT: Elmer Seetot, Jr., Brevig
2 Mission.
3
4 MR. BUCK: Peter Buck, White Mountain.
5
6 CHAIRMAN QUINN: All right. That's
7 everyone that's here at the moment. Tom -- oh, good,
8 there's Tim. Was Louis just in that meeting today?
9
10 MR. KRON: Mr. Chair. My understanding
11 is the meeting he was in was going to be the next two
12 days but there were going to be breaks and
13
14 REPORTER: Tom. Tom.
15
16 MR. KRON: Mr. Chair. My
17 understanding, talking to Louis at the airport, was
18 that the meeting was today and tomorrow, but during the
19 breaks as much as he could, he was going to call into
20 this meeting.
21
22 Thank you, Mr. Chair.
23
24 CHAIRMAN QUINN: All right. Okay,
25 Alex, I would like to put the election of officers off
26 for an undisclosed amount of time today until both Mr.
27 Smith is here and into the groove, and I'll hope that
28 we can conduct it at a time that Mr. Green can call in
29 so we have the maximum amount of participants available
30 for that election of officers. So I can't designate an
31 exact time but if Louis calls in I may interrupt the
32 meeting and just go ahead and we'll do election of
33 officers.
34
35 Therefore, we move on to adopting the
36 agenda. Hopefully everybody's seen the agenda. Hello
37 Tim, have a seat.
38
39 MR. SMITH: Good morning. Sorry I'm
40 late.
41
42 CHAIRMAN QUINN: It sounds like you're
43 a little sick.
44
45 MR. SMITH: I'm just recovering from a
46 case of the Nome crude.
47
48 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Oh, goodness. All
49 right, so we're going to start going over today's
50 agenda and see if we need to change anything. And
5
1 let's see I think that on Page 2 under Alaska
2 Department of Fish and Game I'm going to add advisory
3 committee action -- I'll do that after you speak Letty.
4 I imagine you're the designated speaker today.
5
6 MS. HUGHES: As of right now.
7
8 CHAIRMAN QUINN: All right. Okay, so
9 I'm going to add that. There's something that came up
10 at the State level that I'd like to bring in front of
11 this Council and maybe we can get together and also
12 include a comment. I think we barely have time to get
13 a comment into the Board of Game on this particular
14 proposal.
15
16 Anyone els got any changes?
17
18 MR. SMITH: Yeah, I would like to
19 add
20
21 REPORTER: Wait, wait, Tim, your
22 microphone.
23
24 MR. SMITH: a section on
25
26 REPORTER: Tim.
27
28 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Turn your mic on.
29
30 MR. SMITH: Oh, it's where?
31
32 REPORTER: No -- yeah, right there,
33 when that red light comes on, it's on, great.
34
35 MR. SMITH: Thank you. I'd like to add
36 a -- I hope you can understand me, I'm having a hard
37 time.
38
39 REPORTER: No problem, you're fine,
40 thanks.
41
42 MR. SMITH: My name is Tim Smith. I'd
43 like to add a section for considering Regional Advisory
44 Council action on chum salmon bycatch in the trawl
45 fishery.
46
47 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Okay. Then we will -
48 let's see where are we, next meeting date -- we'll add
49 that under No. 14, other business, Council comment
50
6
1 MR. KRON: Mr. Chair.
2
3 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Yes.
4
5 MR. KRON: Yeah, Mr. Chair, Item No.
6 12, agencies and other reports No. 4 under A, Section
7 A, there'll be some discussion there about salmon
8 bycatch
9
10 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Oh, thank you.
11
12 MR. KRON: groundfish fisheries.
13
14 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Thank you, Tom.
15
16 MR. KRON: That would be the perfect
17 place for Tim to add that.
18
19 CHAIRMAN QUINN: You betcha.
20
21 MR. KRON: Thank you.
22
23 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Thank you, again.
24
25 All right. Anybody else got anything
26 they'd like to add.
27
28 MR. MARTIN: Mr. Chair. No. 9, I'd
29 like to make a proposal, Change to Federal Subsistence
30 Wildlife Regulations for Unit 22 remainder and that is
31 when -- when it comes up, I would like to make a change
32 from January 1st to February 15th to December 15 to
33 January 31st.
34
35 CHAIRMAN QUINN: All right. So we'll
36 discuss that as a proposal. Call for change of
37 regulations.
38
39 All right, anything else.
40
41 MR. KEYES: Yes. Well, since we're on
42 this. I want to bring up some concerns and let
43 everybody here know, due to our weather conditions
44 nowadays, I barely made it into Nome. We have to look
45 at our weather factors being our tough choices of
46 getting on the plane in the future.
47
48 Thank you.
49
50 CHAIRMAN QUINN: I thought I saw
7
1 something in here, Alex, on
2
3 MR. SEETOT: 12, A, 1.
4
5 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Oh, travel procedure,
6 all right, so, Tony, you get to speak about potential
7 travel problems at that time, or anyone else.
8
9 Okay.
10
11 Anything else we want to add.
12
13 (No comments)
14
15 CHAIRMAN QUINN: All right. So
16 then
17
18 MR. BUCK: Make a motion to accept the
19 agenda.
20
21 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Thank you.
22
23 MR. MARTIN: Second.
24
25 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Second by Peter
26 Martin. Any discussion.
27
28 (No comments)
29
30 CHAIRMAN QUINN: None heard.
31
32 MR. SEETOT: Question.
33
34 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Question. All those
35 in favor of the motion say aye.
36
37 IN UNISON: Aye.
38
39 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Any opposed.
40
41 (No opposing votes)
42
43 CHAIRMAN QUINN: I think that was
44 unanimous. All right, did that.
45
46 Now, open your book to Page 5, we'll
47 look at the minutes from the last meeting.
48
49 MR. NICK: Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair.
50
8
1 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Yes, go ahead, Alex.
2
3 MR. NICK: Yeah, I want to note that I
4 -- I want to let the Council know, Council and audience
5 know that maybe this is probably one of the poor
6 minutes that I've written because of the very hastily,
7 but the changes you note will be made.
8
9 Mr. Chair.
10
11 CHAIRMAN QUINN: For the last minutes?
12
13 MR. NICK: Yes.
14
15 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Oh, it looks pretty
16 good to me. Of course that was six months ago and none
17 of us can remember anything we did six months ago.
18
19 (Laughter)
20
21 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Oh, yeah, it's pretty
22 long, gee, I think they look good.
23
24 All right, well
25
26 MR. SEETOT: Mr. Chair.
27
28 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Go ahead.
29
30 MR. SEETOT: Typo on Page 10 the bottom
31 under public comment, I'm not sure if Mr. Lean wanted
32 to write down Iguupuk -- Dolly Vardens on the Iquupuk,
33 if that's appropriate river, that's what I'm thinking,
34 that he was trying to
35
36 CHAIRMAN QUINN: That's probably a
37 misspelling.
38
39 MR. SEETOT: I-Q-U-U-P-U-K, I don't
40 think that's
41
42 CHAIRMAN QUINN: That would be Iquupuk?
43
44 MR. SEETOT: A-G-I-A-P-U-K, that's the
45 way it appears on the map, that's what I think that he
46 was thinking about.
47
48 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Sure.
49
50 MR. SEETOT: And also on Page 15, Mr.
9
1 Mr. Noiqkuk and Mr. Karkarek's [sic] last names are
2 spelled incorrectly. Those are the typos that I found
3 in here.
4
5 CHAIRMAN QUINN: On 15.
6
7 MR. SEETOT: Under Bureau of Land
8 Management.
9
10 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Oh.
11
12 MR. SEETOT: They have that Noiqkuk and
13 Karkarek [sic] Herd misspelled, and those were the only
14 typos that I ran into.
15
16 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Oh.
17
18 MR. SEETOT: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
19
20 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Okay. Alex, you're
21 getting that?
22
23 MR. NICK: Yes, and Tina is.
24
25 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Elmer, you could
26 probably help Alex and Tina during a break with making
27 sure those two names are spelled correctly.
28
29 MR. SEETOT: Okay.
30
31 CHAIRMAN QUINN: And Alex the river
32 he's talking about on Page 10 is A-G-I-A-P-U-K, oh, and
33 then the other thing you can do is open up the book,
34 except I don't have one, and see it as well. But,
35 anyway, okay, any other changes to the minutes.
36
37 If not, I'll accept a motion to adopt.
38
39 MR. MARTIN: So moved.
40
41 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Motion by Peter
42 Martin.
43
44 MR. BUCK: Seconded.
45
46 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Seconded by Peter
47 Buck. Any discussion.
48
49 (No comments)
50
10
1 CHAIRMAN QUINN: If not, question -
2 call the question.
3
4 MR. SEETOT: Question.
5
6 CHAIRMAN QUINN: All those in favor of
7 the motion say aye.
8
9 IN UNISON: Aye.
10
11 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Opposed.
12
13 (No opposing votes)
14
15 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Motion carries.
16
17 MR. SMITH: Well, I'll abstain, Mike.
18 I wasn't -- I didn't attend the meeting.
19
20 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Sure, okay. Action
21 report, okay, who's got that, No. 7.
22
23 MR. KRON: Mr. Chairman. Action report
24 from the January 18th through 20th meeting in
25 Anchorage, 2011, that just occurred here a little over
26 a month ago.
27
28 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Uh-huh.
29
30 MR. KRON: And, again, it's included
31 there starting on Page 19 to give you a summary of
32 information from that meeting. I know Tim was there,
33 others may have been there as well, but, again, this is
34 a summary of the results from that meeting, just for
35 your information.
36
37 So unless you've got any questions it's
38 something to look at.
39
40 CHAIRMAN QUINN: All right.
41
42 MR. KRON: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
43
44 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Thank you, Tom. Does
45 anybody have any questions.
46
47 MR. SMITH: Yes.
48
49 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Go ahead.
50
11
1 MR. SMITH: It's not a question, it's a
2 comment. That was the first Federal Subsistence Board
3 meeting I've attended and my understanding was it was
4 handled very differently than previous meetings and it
5 was different than any meeting like it that I've ever
6 attended and I've been going to meetings like that for
7 many years.
8
9 The big difference was people had
10 plenty of time to participate. You know, I went as a
11 member of the public at my own expense and I was given
12 pretty much the same deference as the people that were
13 sitting at the table. It was really a good system. I
14 don't know how long they're going to be able to do
15 that. The problem is it takes a lot of time. But, you
16 know, I don't know if you've ever attended a North
17 Pacific Fisheries Management Council meeting, you get a
18 minute and a half. It's really hard to talk about a
19 complex issue in a minute and a half, especially if
20 you're not professional. And I really, really
21 appreciated the way this one was conducted. And I give
22 Chairman Towarak a lot of credit for trying a new
23 method. Because, you know, for years it's been clear
24 to me that the methods of communication that are used
25 at these meetings are not appropriate for people from
26 rural areas, particularly where there's language
27 problems and where people are non-professional meeting
28 attenders, and, you know. I do it myself. I get done
29 with my minute and a half and I think boy I wish I
30 would've said something different.
31
32 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Yep.
33
34 MR. SMITH: Well, in this case you had
35 another chance at it. You could get another bite at
36 the apple, you could go back and say it the way you
37 meant it the first time. And I really think this is an
38 excellent way to handle meetings, if we can do it, if
39 we can handle the logistics of it. I know it's going
40 to make the meetings a lot longer. But if the goal is
41 to get meaningful input from rural areas we're going to
42 have slow things down. There's just no way of getting
43 around it.
44
45 So, I thought it was great and I really
46 encourage any of the rest of you to go if you can; it's
47 really worth it.
48
49 MR. BUCK: Mr. Chair.
50
12
1 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Yes, go ahead.
2
3 MR. BUCK: I also attended that meeting
4 and it was also my first Federal Subsistence Board
5 meeting and it was also Tim Towarak's first Board
6 meeting. But the emphasis was put on rural opinions
7 and that they're not held off or that we listen to
8 them, okay, and I think that the meeting went really,
9 really good, yeah, I enjoyed it.
10
11 Thank you.
12
13 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Tom, did Mr. Towarak
14 pretty much plan and implement that meeting?
15
16 MR. KRON: Mr. Chair. He had a major
17 role, again, as the New Chair. The Department of
18 Interior working with the Department of Agriculture
19 have made some changes to the process. We'll be
20 talking about some of those later on in the meeting and
21 they want more input from the Councils as well. But,
22 again, part of this is to provide a quick summary of
23 the meeting for you so you can see what happened there
24 and what action was taken on fisheries proposals.
25
26 They are also implementing a tribal
27 consultation process to figure out how they're going to
28 implement that in a meaningful way.
29
30 There's a summary in your book, I
31 think, on Page 77, of the results from an executive
32 session the Board had to look at the Secretaries
33 directions and decide how to implement those. So they
34 want to be more open, slow the process down, provide
35 meaningful input for rural users and I'm sure they'll
36 be pleased to hear that those that attended felt it was
37 a good process.
38
39 Thank you, Mr. Chair.
40
41 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Okay. All right. So
42 it looks like we're going to get into some of the meat
43 and potatoes of the meeting. Wildlife closure review,
44 Council recommendations. And Cole, you're going to
45 speak A, Page 32.
46
47 MS. BROWN: Yes, good morning, Mr.
48 Chair. Members of the Council. My name is Cole Brown.
49 I'm with the Office of Subsistence Management. And I
50 will be going over the wildlife closures for Seward
13
1 Peninsula.
2
3 We'll start with the Wildlife Closure
4 Review briefing, which is on Page 32 of your books.
5
6 As called for in the closure policy,
7 which is on Pages 33 through 36 in your Council books,
8 the Office of Subsistence Management is reviewing
9 existing wildlife closures to determine whether the
10 original justification for closure is still consistent
11 with the Federal Subsistence Board's Closure Policy.
12 Section .815, (3) of ANILCA allows closures, when
13 necessary, for the conservation of healthy populations
14 of fish and wildlife and to continue subsistence uses
15 of such populations.
16
17 Distribution and abundance of fish and
18 wildlife populations are known to fluctuate based upon
19 a variety of factors. Subsistence use patterns are
20 also known to change in response to factors including
21 resource abundance and human population changes.
22
23 The Wildlife Closure Reviews contain a
24 brief history of why a closure was implemented along
25 with a summary of the current resource condition and a
26 preliminary OSM recommendation as to whether the
27 closure should be continued or deleted from the
28 regulations. Councils are asked to consider the OSM
29 preliminary recommendation and share their views on the
30 issue.
31
32 Input from the Councils is critical to
33 the development of regulatory proposals.
34
35 The current deadline to submit wildlife
36 proposals is March 24th, 2011. Councils may choose to
37 work with OSM Staff to develop a proposal, however,
38 proposals may be submitted by anyone.
39
40 So if there's not any questions with
41 that we'll continue on with the wildlife closure
42 reviews that we have for Seward Peninsula.
43
44 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Cole and Tom, where's
45 Pete and Polly and why isn't one of them here, and
46 what's your boss' name, Cole?
47
48 MS. BROWN: Chuck.
49
50 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Chuck.
14
1 MR. KRON: Mr. Chairman. I can give
2 you some information on a number of those people.
3
4 Pete Probasco had intended to be at
5 this meeting, he was unable to attend and I apologize
6 for him, he asked me to attend to represent him. I
7 believe Chuck Ardizzone has jury duty.
8
9 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Oh.
10
11 MR. KRON: Polly, I think, is signed up
12 to attend about half of the 10 Regional Advisory
13 Councils. But, again, we will represent OSM and help
14 you out in any way we can. And if we have questions we
15 may end up calling back to Anchorage, but we will do
16 our very best.
17
18 Thank you, Mr. Chair.
19
20 CHAIRMAN QUINN: All right. Well, I'm
21 used to seeing Helen Armstrong here and a little larger
22 Staff. And I thought this outfit was getting more
23 money so I'm kind of surprised that we're not seeing as
24 much of a footprint here as I did in the past. But,
25 Cole, you can carry on with Review No. 10-10.
26
27 MS. BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
28
29 Wildlife Closure Review 10-10, the
30 closure location was in Unit 22B and it was for muskox.
31 The closure dates were from August 1st through March
32 15th.
33
34 Justification for original closure,
35 Proposal WP01-35 was the result of a multi-year
36 cooperative effort of the Seward Peninsula Muskox
37 Cooperatives Group to establish a muskox harvest system
38 that would be biologically sound in its management and
39 provide for a continued subsistence uses of the
40 population. In order to meet these criteria the Board
41 closed Federal public lands in Unit 22B to non
42 Federally-qualified hunters during the August 1st
43 through March 15th season.
44
45 Current resource abundance related to
46 management objective. The current size and continued
47 growth of the Unit 22B muskox population is meeting the
48 State's management goals.
49
50 The resource population trend. By 2010
15
1 the Seward Peninsula muskox population increased to an
2 estimated 3,120 animals, that's for the entire Seward
3 Peninsula. In Unit 22B, muskoxen are well established
4 west and east of the Darby Mountains as the population
5 has increased from three in 1992 to about 541 animals
6 by 2010. The ratios of mature bulls which are four
7 years and older, has decreased from over 50 mature
8 bulls in 2002 to less than 40 mature bulls in 2009.
9 The decline in mature bull ratios along with the
10 tendency for hunters to select for mature bulls over
11 younger bulls can lead to a reduced harvest quota in
12 order to help insure healthy muskox ratios.
13
14 Harvest trend and/or hunting effort.
15 Unit 22B muskox harvest has varied from nine to 20
16 bulls and the quota has been set at 16 bulls for the
17 years 2005 to 2009. The majority of the harvest during
18 these years was by Federally-qualified subsistence
19 hunters.
20
21 The OSM preliminary conclusion is to
22 maintain the status quo, which is to maintain the
23 closure.
24
25 The justification is Federal public
26 lands should remain closed to non-Federally-qualified
27 users for the conservation of a healthy population and
28 to allow the continuation of subsistence uses of
29 muskox. Although the muskox population within the
30 Seward Peninsula and in Unit 22B continues to grow, the
31 number harvested is still tightly managed with a quota
32 system and there's not enough of a harvestable surplus
33 to support non-Federally-qualified hunters beyond what
34 is already being harvested by Federally-qualified
35 subsistence hunters.
36
37 Thank you, Mr. Chair.
38
39 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Who wrote this, Cole?
40
41 MS. BROWN: I believe it was our other
42 wildlife biologist Spencer Reardon.
43
44 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Okay. It says tightly
45 managed with a quota system. What's the current quota
46 in 22B?
47
48 (Laughter)
49
50 MS. HUGHES: Okay, this is Letty Hughes
16
1 with Fish and Game. To the Chair and to the Board.
2 22B West has a quota of 23 and 22B East of the Darby
3 Mountains has a quota of three. And for both of those
4 areas it's bull only.
5
6 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Cole, you should come
7 to these meetings familiar with that sort of
8 information in my opinion.
9
10 What was the quota last year?
11
12 MS. HUGHES: I want to say I believe it
13 was about 15 if I remember correctly.
14
15 CHAIRMAN QUINN: I think it was 12.
16 And the quota actually doubled from one year to the
17 next.
18
19 Okay. Anybody have any questions.
20
21 MR. SMITH: I have a question.
22
23 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Yep.
24
25 MR. SMITH: I'm wondering why there's
26 so many unknowns in 2009? I'm referring to Table 1 on
27 Page 41.
28
29 MS. HUGHES: Okay, I'm just taking a
30 look at this really quick to answer your question.
31 Okay, I do not know why it has unknown down or, you
32 know, maybe at the time that this was given, it was
33 very possible that they did not know, but I mean at
34 this current date we should have updated numbers on
35 this. So I can get that back to you.
36
37 MR. SMITH: Can you get those numbers
38 to us before this meeting is over?
39
40 MS. HUGHES: I'm sorry?
41
42 MR. SMITH: Can you get those numbers
43 to us before this meeting is over?
44
45 MS. HUGHES: Yes.
46
47 MR. SMITH: Thank you.
48
49 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Well, the answer to
50 one of my questions is right there. I believe 2009 was
17
1 last year's hunt, correct, Letty, we're actually in the
2 2010 hunt now?
3
4 MS. HUGHES: That is correct.
5
6 CHAIRMAN QUINN: All right. So last
7 year's quota was 11. This year's quota is 23. All
8 right, here's 22. If you open your book there you can
9 get an idea of just how much Federal land is involved
10 in 22B area. And the Darby Mountains divide B into an
11 East and West hunt area.
12
13 Cole, I probably didn't pay as close
14 attention as I should have, how often do we review
15 wildlife closures?
16
17 MS. BROWN: Every three years, Mr.
18 Chair.
19
20 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Oh, if we continue
21 this closure it'll be in effect for three more years?
22
23 MS. BROWN: Or you can open it through
24 a special action or you can request to put in a
25 proposal this wildlife regulatory cycle, which is why
26 we're bringing these up, if you would like to bring in
27 a proposal then we would write one up and that would be
28 reviewed within this next regulatory cycle. If you
29 choose to keep the wildlife closure at this time, you
30 can still bring up a wildlife special action outside
31 the regulatory period. So you're not beholden to the
32 three years.
33
34 CHAIRMAN QUINN: All right. Well,
35 here's Unit -- on Page 40 here's a graph, I'm sure
36 provided by the state of Alaska, for Unit 22B muskox
37 census, and you can see from 2007 to 2010 the
38 population increased dramatically. I guess that would
39 legitimize the higher quota.
40
41 I guess, Cole, I'm surprised with the
42 large increase in the number of animals, the large
43 change in the quota that you'd still recommend this
44 closure.
45
46 MS. BROWN: Mr. Chair. There are
47 several factors, the first being that this was the
48 first year that that census method was actually
49 conducted, so to apply that census technique to the
50 previous years there are a lot of problems with that
18
1 because of assumptions. So because it's the only year
2 that that has been -- that census technique has been
3 utilized, it's a stand-alone figure as 541 animals,
4 without anything to compare it to. Because it does
5 seem to be, when you look at the graph, I mean there's
6 a huge jump in that, so is that part of the new census
7 technique or is that actually that there are more
8 animals in that area or were they just being missed
9 before because of the census technique or are there
10 actually more animals.
11
12 In addition to that, while the numbers,
13 the overall numbers seem to have increased, the mature
14 bull/cow ratio has decreased.
15
16 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Well, now, wait a
17 minute, you just told me the figure from the last
18 census is bogus, why is any of this other information
19 any good
20
21 MS. BROWN: Because
22
23 CHAIRMAN QUINN: as well?
24
25 MS. BROWN: Mr. Chair. Because the
26 mature bull/cow ratio has decreased over a period of
27 five years.
28
29 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Well, how do you know
30 that, you can't trust this last year's worth of
31 information?
32
33 MS. BROWN: Okay. So
34
35 CHAIRMAN QUINN: If you're going to
36 tell me
37
38 MS. BROWN: if you look at -- if
39 you look at, Mr. Chair
40
41 CHAIRMAN QUINN: All right.
42
43 MS. BROWN: let me see where is
44 it, I'm trying to find out what table it is, well, it's
45 on Page 39, so Table 1 -- okay, so it is in Table 1.
46
47 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Okay, Table 1 is on
48 Page 41 in our book.
49
50 MS. BROWN: It has -- right, but I
19
1 can't -- I'm looking at where that is located within
2 the table, and I personally don't see it so that is why
3 I think it might actually be a typo.
4
5 MS. HUGHES: Okay, to the Chair, and I
6 do want to kind of comment on this as well. Part of
7 what you're seeing in the increase in number, as well,
8 is when we decided to do this new line, distance line
9 transect method, is we also included areas into the
10 muskox estimate that were not previously, you know, put
11 in, so we went further east, we went into, you know,
12 22A, so in previous years, you know, we did not look at
13 those areas. So what you're also seeing is, you know,
14 the range expansion with these other areas that we've
15 looked at for muskox. So, you know, that's just
16 something else to take into consideration when you look
17 at this number from the 2010 muskox census, is where we
18 actually went into the study area.
19
20 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Okay. But, Letty, the
21 figure says it's a Unit 22B census count. What does
22 your increase into Unit 22A have to do with the Unit
23 22B muskox figures?
24
25 MS. HUGHES: Well, you are correct, I
26 was just clarifying.
27
28 CHAIRMAN QUINN: All right. And, I
29 mean, as I said in the beginning, this is probably your
30 graph, right, Letty, on 22B?
31
32 MS. HUGHES: Yes, it is the
33 Department's graph.
34
35 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Okay. Is the 541
36 figure believable or not?
37
38 MS. HUGHES: We can say it's a very
39 good estimate.
40
41 CHAIRMAN QUINN: There you go, I like
42 that, Tim.
43
44 MR. SMITH: I think maybe a little more
45 clarification is probably called for. I'm always a
46 little dubious of population numbers without a
47 confidence interval, and I see there isn't one. 541 is
48 an estimate but there's a confidence interval around
49 that, do you have any estimates of precision in your
50 population estimate?
20
1 MS. HUGHES: We do. And I can get in
2 touch with Tony on that.
3
4 MR. SMITH: Yeah, it's not a matter of
5 believability so much as it's a different method. The
6 methods before were an attempt at a minimum count even
7 though they should have a confidence interval on them
8 and they never do because there's no way to estimate
9 with precision in a direct count method. But this last
10 one is an entirely different, it's a scientific
11 sampling method of estimating numbers. It's 541 but it
12 could be a lot less than that, it could be more than
13 that, you can't really say for sure exactly what it is,
14 541 is just the middle of your estimate. And so maybe
15 the muskox population grew that much, maybe it didn't.
16
17 The real concern here is, I think, or a
18 concern is with the bull/cow ratio. You know, muskoxen
19 are -- they defend themselves against predators and
20 bulls are very important in being able to do that. And
21 we're seeing that bears are killing a lot more muskox
22 than they did in the past, and without the bulls I
23 think you could expect predation to increase quite a
24 bit.
25
26 CHAIRMAN QUINN: My discussions with
27 Tony in the past have said -- he's always insisted he
28 has a very high confidence level and if you -- the
29 title of Figure 2 is census counts, and he's stated
30 that they actually count animals. Now if that's not
31 true for the 541 figure then I don't know what to say.
32
33 We definitely, at least at the State
34 level, have heard a lot of comment on bull/cow ratios
35 and I believe that that particular area 22B only allows
36 bull harvests so whether you harvest a mature bull or a
37 younger bull, you're still going to harvest bulls and
38 affect -- at some level you're going to affect the
39 mature bull to cow ratio. If you harvest a younger one
40 this year, well, okay, you haven't affected it this
41 year, but you're going to affect it in later years.
42
43 Well, you don't need to debate this all
44 day long. I would like to see information provided to
45 this Council that's accurate and the people that
46 present this information to the Council are familiar
47 with it.
48
49 Okay, any other questions. If anybody
50 wants to make a proposal we can -- or a motion, I'm
21
1 sorry, we can do that.
2
3 MR. SMITH: Mike.
4
5 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Go ahead.
6
7 MR. SMITH: I move to accept the
8 continuation of the closure and I guess I'll discuss it
9 if we get a second.
10
11 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Okay, motion's on the
12 floor.
13
14 MR. KEYES: I'll second it.
15
16 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Seconded by Tony.
17
18 Discussion.
19
20 MR. SMITH: Yeah, I think that there is
21 a little confusion about it. I agree with you, Mike,
22 there is confusion about the way this data's presented.
23 I think that's problematic. You know, I think it's
24 useful to try a different method of estimating X
25 numbers, direct counts are getting harder and harder to
26 do because of the increasing numbers. But I think we
27 need to be very cautious about just accepting this
28 number at face value. You know, it's a scientific
29 sample, there's always a lot of problems in
30 methodology.
31
32 The biggest problem of all with
33 muskoxen is, the whole concept that there's such a
34 thing as a Unit 22B population is flawed, there is no
35 such thing as a Unit 22B population. That's an
36 artificial division for convenience of management and
37 it has nothing to do with muskox populations. And so
38 we're just taking a snapshot of the muskoxen that are
39 on this piece of ground at the time they do the census
40 and it's a whole flawed concept.
41
42 Muskox management will get a lot easier
43 if we have more muskoxen. There'll be a lot less
44 conflicts over who gets what if we get the numbers up.
45 The carrying capacity of muskoxen on the Seward
46 Peninsula is very high, very high, tens of thousands of
47 animals, and the sooner we get there, in my opinion,
48 the less conflict we're going to have.
49
50 MR. KEYES: I have a question for Cole.
22
1 This is Anthony. Are these animals being counted
2 through the air, such as using the helicopter or by
3 foot?
4
5 MS. HUGHES: Through the Chair to
6 Anthony, Mr. Keyes. We do use -- we have a fleet of
7 SuperCubs, 185s that we use to count these animals.
8
9 MR. KEYES: Using aircrafts such as
10 SuperCubs and your helicopter I know you're going to
11 miss some animals because there is some animals that
12 are in the trees laying down and I think to do your
13 counting would be easier by foot after you had spotted
14 them at the air because, you know, you could see only
15 so much up in the air but when you get on the ground,
16 on your two feet, you get to see more because there's
17 some in the willows that are being missed and I'm
18 pretty sure of that.
19
20 MS. HUGHES: You're absolutely correct.
21
22 MR. BUCK: Mr. Chair.
23
24 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Go ahead.
25
26 MR. BUCK: On Page 38 on the -- for the
27 muskox 22B, it says the Cooperators Group opposed
28 muskox hunting in 22B, I would like to understand what
29 was their opposition for?
30
31 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Where on Page 38 is
32 that?
33
34 MR. BUCK: If anybody from the
35 Cooperators Group is here I'd like an explanation.
36
37 MR. SEETOT: Mr. Chair.
38
39 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Go ahead.
40
41 MR. SEETOT: I'm on the Cooperators
42 Group. I think at that time for 22B it was for the
43 growth of the muskox to set in subunit 22B so that was
44 pretty much the closure I think at that time if I do
45 remember correctly.
46
47 MR. ADKISSON: Mr. Chair. Ken
48 Adkisson, National Park Service. I currently function
49 as the Chair of the Cooperators Group so maybe I can
50 help answer that question if you'll repeat it please?
23
1 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Go ahead.
2
3 MR. ADKISSON: What was the
4 specific
5
6 MR. BUCK: All of it.
7
8 MR. ADKISSON: question?
9
10 MR. BUCK: All of -- the specific
11 question was if you look on 38
12
13 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Peter, actually that
14 wasn't from the Cooperators unless I'm reading the
15 wrong one.
16
17 MR. BUCK: State recommendations for
18 original closure, okay.
19
20 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Oh, okay.
21
22 MR. BUCK: And down there the very last
23 section.
24
25 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Oh, I see.
26
27 MR. BUCK: And the Muskox Cooperators
28 Group opposed the muskox hunting in 22B, so
29
30 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Okay, that was in
31 1998.
32
33 MR. BUCK: Okay. Okay. Okay, we can
34 cancel that then, I'm sorry.
35
36 (Laughter)
37
38 CHAIRMAN QUINN: That's okay. That was
39 awhile ago before there were as many muskox as we got
40 now.
41
42 (Laughter)
43
44 CHAIRMAN QUINN: We got just enough to
45 argue over now.
46
47 (Laughter)
48
49 CHAIRMAN QUINN: All right. So any
50 more discussion. If not I'll call for the question.
24
1 MR. SEETOT: Question.
2
3 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Okay, the motion is to
4 support the proposal to continue the closure or is to
5 support to continue the closure, okay.
6
7 All those in favor of the motion say
8 aye.
9
10 IN UNISON: Aye.
11
12 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Any opposed.
13
14 (No opposing votes)
15
16 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Motion carries. Okay,
17 Cole, No. 11. Oh, moose, okay.
18
19 MS. BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
20 Let's see the next two wildlife closure reviews, WCR10
21 11 and WCR10-12 were analyzed together. They were of
22 the same hunt but a different season so fall and winter
23 season. They start on Page 42 of your books.
24
25 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Okay.
26
27 MS. BROWN: The closure location is
28 Unit 22B, west of the Darby Mountains and it is from
29 moose. The closure dates for WCR10-11 is the fall
30 season, September 1st through September 14th, Federal
31 public lands are closed to the harvest of moose except
32 by Federally-qualified subsistence users. WCR10-12 is
33 January 1st through January 31st, Federal public lands
34 are closed to the harvest of moose except by residents
35 of White Mountain and Golovin.
36
37 Justification for the original closure.
38 In 2002 the Board adopted Proposal WP02-34 and WP02-35
39 because of the small number of moose available for the
40 harvest relative to the number of subsistence users
41 with a customary and traditional use determination to
42 harvest moose and that's in Section .814 of ANILCA.
43
44 Current resource abundance related to
45 management objective. The ADF&G management objective
46 for moose in Unit 22B West, that's within the affected
47 area, is to maintain the population at 1,000 to 1,200
48 moose.
49
50 Resource population trend. As stated,
25
1 the management objective is between 1,000 to 1,200
2 moose. The most recent Unit 22B West population
3 estimate is 570 moose based on surveys at the end of
4 February 2010. This estimate indicates that the ADF&G
5 objective is not being met. Calf to cow ratios were 10
6 calves to 100 adults and the density was .23 moose per
7 square mile.
8
9 Moose harvested within the affected
10 area has remained relatively stable for years 2003 to
11 2008. That's in Table 2. The reported fall harvest
12 has ranged from 17 to 41 moose, and the reported winter
13 harvest has ranged from four to seven moose for years
14 2003 to 2008. Local residents of Unit 22 have
15 accounted for 69 to 74 percent of the moose harvested
16 for the 10 years from 1994 to 2004 and 78 to 90 percent
17 with the data from 2005 to 2007.
18
19 OSM preliminary conclusion is to
20 maintain the closure.
21
22 Justification. The Unit 22B moose
23 population west of the Darby Mountains continues to be
24 low and at a low density. There are no indications
25 that there has been any increase in the moose
26 population to justify non-subsistence harvest. The
27 population is still below ADF&G management objectives
28 and the harvest is generally taken by local residents.
29 Therefore, Federal public lands should remain closed to
30 non-Federally-qualified users for the conservation of a
31 healthy population and to allow the continuation of
32 subsistence uses of moose for fall and winter hunts.
33
34 Thank you, Mr. Chair.
35
36 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Thank you, Cole.
37 Letty, are these tables any more believable than the
38 last group of tables for muskox?
39
40 MS. HUGHES: Through the Chair. As far
41 as I know, yes.
42
43 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Okay. Any questions.
44 Oh, I'm sorry, speak up a little bit, don't
45
46 MR. SMITH: I'm having a hard time
47 speaking up, maybe my voice will get better by
48 tomorrow.
49
50 But I'd like to move that we adopt the
26
1 closure for non-qualified Federal subsistence users for
2 22B West and we'll discuss it if we get a second.
3
4 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Okay, a motion's on
5 the floor. Do I hear a second.
6
7 MR. KEYES: Second.
8
9 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Seconded by Tony.
10 Discussion. Tim.
11
12 MR. SMITH: Yeah, this is sad for me to
13 see. You know, one of the first things I did when I
14 came to the Seward Peninsula back in the early '80s is
15 I did moose studies. I tracked radio-collared moose in
16 Unit 22B, and all over the Seward Peninsula, and I also
17 participated in the moose counts in those days. And
18 things were great, I couldn't believe it. This was the
19 best place to hunt moose in the state of Alaska in the
20 early '80s, 22B especially was just remarkable, there
21 were a lot of moose in the Fish River Flats, and now
22 there aren't. And the really disturbing thing is
23 nobody knows why. There's a lot of speculation.
24 There's a lot of guesses. There's a lot of factors
25 that may be playing -- having an effect, but we don't
26 have the foggiest notion, really, what's keeping the
27 moose population from recovering.
28
29 I personally don't think it's hunting
30 but I don't know. And we just don't have enough data
31 on anything that's affecting those moose. And I don't
32 see any way, if they're going to come back. Provided
33 we can still have a harvest which I think is doubtful,
34 I mean I think maybe the best thing to do is to close
35 hunting completely, but if we're going to have a
36 harvest I'd like to see what few animals are available
37 go to the people in White Mountain and Golovin. You
38 know I've heard a lot of complaints from people down
39 there that they're getting out-competed by people from
40 Nome, you know, and people from Nome have better
41 equipment, maybe they're more ambitious, you know,
42 they've got more money, certainly, and so they're
43 getting the moose during the State season. So I guess
44 what few moose we can allocate for hunting I'd like to
45 see them go to the people in White Mountain and
46 Golovin.
47
48 MR. KEYES: This is Anthony. No matter
49 how much closures that we try to put on each village I
50 notice that we would have another village go and travel
27
1 into their village and do the hunting for themselves,
2 you know, taking away their abundancy for that
3 villages. That's why, you know, population of the
4 moose is starting to decline because you have other
5 villages sneaking into that certain area to do the
6 hunting because they can't find it in their own area.
7 That's the biggest main problem that we've been kind of
8 facing ever since we started this, you know, saying
9 this village should only hunt but there's always other
10 villages come sneaking in to do the hunting, you know.
11
12 MR. BUCK: Mr. Chair.
13
14 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Go ahead, Peter.
15
16 MR. BUCK: One of the problems that we
17 had was in White Mountain for the moose hunting season,
18 you have a season between September 1st to September
19 14th and January 1st to January 31st, well, the January
20 1st to 31st season is in the wintertime and the moose
21 that we caught during that time was very little fat on
22 it, during the winter season.
23
24 The other problem that we had with
25 September 1st to 14th, one year in White Mountain the
26 water dropped and we couldn't get -- and you couldn't
27 boat and get your moose in White Mountain where we
28 usually get our moose because the water was so low and
29 the qualified hunters from Nome, in that region went to
30 Council River and got all the moose out of Council so
31 that's one of the problems that we had before.
32
33 But I think we pretty much worked it
34 out now, but we'd like to keep this season as it is
35 right now.
36
37 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Okay. Well, Tim, if
38 you look at the fall season on the Federal side, the
39 Federal lands are closed to qualified subsistence users
40 and then you got to look in your Unit 22 book and you
41 see for moose, all rural residents of Unit 22 are
42 qualified subsistence users so the Federal system has,
43 for that fall season, has no way to really pick and
44 choose between where you live in 22 and if you get to
45 hunt in that particular hunt.
46
47 Now, if you look at the winter hunt
48 you'll see that the Federal lands are closed, except by
49 residents of White Mountain and Golovin, so in that
50 respect the Federal system does have the ability to
28
1 pick and choose, and I'm sure you're familiar with the
2 State season where the permits are only available in
3 White Mountain and Golovin for the winter hunt.
4
5 MR. SMITH: Right.
6
7 CHAIRMAN QUINN: But everybody can get
8 the fall season hunt.
9
10 Okay. Any more discussion.
11
12 MR. SEETOT: Mr. Chair.
13
14 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Go ahead, Elmer.
15
16 MR. SEETOT: According to the number
17 results from 1987 with estimated high of about 1,800 to
18 2000 -- to 570, I think we need to take into account
19 other factors other than harvest by hunters. We do
20 have a lot of interior fires, I'm not too sure how much
21 that will affect the moose that do reside in the
22 forested areas but the majority that we catch in Brevig
23 kind of pretty much go through the middle of the Seward
24 Peninsula and then I would think that the smoke, smoke
25 and such would kind of affect these land animals. To
26 what extent I don't know.
27
28 Mortality rates, I would think that the
29 biologists would take into consideration why there is
30 such a decline in numbers and then also possibly
31 predation activity within these areas. Like I said in
32 previous meetings, we do complain a lot about
33 predators, especially bears around that area but
34 hunters themselves really haven't hunted the bears for
35 at least 20, 30 years, at least, in Brevig Mission.
36 Because when I was growing up before the TV and Western
37 technology really came into swing, all the pretty much
38 land animals were harvested pretty much for subsistence
39 or their by-products. But the latest technology and
40 everything, everything is going by the way to the
41 grocery stores, not much interest by young people,
42 other than participating in the activities of the
43 actual hunt itself and not so much processing, you
44 know, the resource. It's mostly done by the older
45 generation that crave subsistence foods when they're in
46 season, crave it more when they're not in season. But
47 I would think that other factors need to be taken into
48 consideration when you're looking at the decline of
49 certain resources other than just saying I think there
50 were just too much hunters present, you know, just
29
1 other circumstances come into play.
2
3 Possibly in this way that it just kind
4 of works out for a particular year. It might be dry -
5 dry season for certain plants and other resources, it
6 might be a bad year when it's so dry for other things.
7 So -- but that's what we don't usually take into
8 account, is that we just kind of look at the human
9 aspect of it without really looking at wildlife does,
10 you know, in its natural state from birth to death.
11 That's what we really don't know too much about, only a
12 very small bit of information that we glean over the
13 years from people, observations or just by scientific
14 research and that's something you -- we need to look at
15 other than the Seward Peninsula has very little Federal
16 public lands in our portion other than the eastern
17 portion of Norton Sound. So that needs to be taken
18 into consideration actual mortality rates, other
19 factors when the decline of resources are being
20 questioned.
21
22 Thank you.
23
24 MR. KEYES: This is Anthony. I would
25 like to add on to Elmer's comment here about that we
26 have to take into consideration that every spring to
27 summer our weather is getting more warmer, more hotter
28 and which is bringing out more mosquitos. I noticed
29 the mosquito population has grown quite a bit on our
30 moose, caribou, reindeer, you know, the mosquito is
31 playing a major role on our animals here. And I've
32 seen through the past years, it's not only human that's
33 doing the damage on our animals, it's the, you know,
34 the insects are doing the major play too because if you
35 go up there on a hot day and you run into these lakes
36 where there's a lot of mosquitos, they got them on the
37 moose, the muskox, the caribou and the reindeer, so
38 other than having say there's wolves, fires, lack of
39 water, lack of environment, plantation for food for the
40 animals, you know. That's pretty much what I wanted to
41 add in for Elmer.
42
43 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Letty, I notice where
44 it says that habitat's no longer believed to be the
45 limiting factor in the population and you talk about
46 brown bear predation, so that being said, and I
47 understand that the Board of Game will be discussing a
48 new bear management policy at the Region 4 meeting, I
49 think, and I read some of that, it sounded like they're
50 looking to allow a little few more options on getting
30
1 people to harvest bears. Does the State have any plans
2 to increase attempts, or possibilities for bear harvest
3 in 22B to assist this moose population?
4
5 MS. HUGHES: To the Chair. As of right
6 now I do not have an answer for that. If, you know,
7 proposals come forward before this coming, you know,
8 Region 5 November Board of Game, you know, it's very
9 possible, but as of right now what we have in the
10 regulation book is what we have.
11
12 CHAIRMAN QUINN: The Department often
13 makes proposals, what I'm asking you is in your office
14 is there any plan to maybe possibly submit a proposal,
15 you could increase the bag limit on brown bears in Unit
16 22B. I believe if the Board of Game passes this
17 management policy there'll actually be other avenues
18 available to you; have the people in your office been
19 discussing doing something about brown bear predation
20 on moose?
21
22 MS. HUGHES: There has not been
23 discussion on submitting a proposal by the Department
24 to increase brown bears in Unit 22, however, that does
25 not mean it's not a possibility or a suggestion.
26
27 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Okay. Cole, Letty
28 doesn't get the hot seat all by herself. The Federal
29 side needs to participate in this as well. Has there
30 been any discussions of proposals from the Federal side
31 to do something about brown bear harvest?
32
33 MS. BROWN: Not to my knowledge, no.
34
35 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Okay. Well, ladies I
36 think we kind of look to your agencies to assist us in
37 this and it'd be nice to see some proactive efforts on
38 both your agency's parts in helping the people since we
39 can't -- all we can do is stop our harvest so
40
41 MS. BROWN: Mr. Chair. Anyone can
42 bring a proposal to the Federal Subsistence Program.
43 So if there -- whether it comes through this Council,
44 whether it comes as an individual, anyone can submit a
45 proposal if they would like to change the brown bear
46 harvest regulations.
47
48 Thank you, Mr. Chair.
49
50 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Tim.
31
1 MR. SMITH: You know, 40 years ago I
2 don't think I would have imagined myself saying this
3 but -- and I know it's not on the table for this
4 meeting, but I think we need to really look at predator
5 control programs again if we intend to have food
6 animals here in Alaska. You know over the years I've
7 come to change my opinions on that. I just don't think
8 we can have healthy moose populations in 22B without
9 predator control. It's not just bears. Recently -
10 you know, like I said I've spend hundreds of hours
11 flying out there, the latest thing I did I flew caribou
12 transects for the University of Alaska Reindeer
13 Research Program, I just criss-crossed the Fish River
14 Flats every week counting caribou and in that time like
15 I was able to count moose, too, they're easy to count
16 when there's snow cover. And, you know, years ago, you
17 know, I'd go two or three years without seeing a wolf
18 out there, now it's every time. You know I see it
19 every -- I could go up there in an hour and find a wolf
20 pack.
21
22 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Well, are you carrying
23 your gun?
24
25 (Laughter)
26
27 MR. SMITH: I don't want to give my -
28 no, I don't want to give my plane to the State, you
29 know, that's the problem.
30
31 CHAIRMAN QUINN: That's a joke.
32
33 MR. SMITH: Under current regulations
34 there's nothing we can do about it. And the people
35 aren't up there anymore, you know, that's another big
36 change over the years. Because of the cost of going
37 out you just don't see people out in the country like
38 there were in the past in an open area like the Fish
39 River Flats, wolves weren't able to move through the
40 Flats, somebody would find their tracks, run them down
41 and get them, well that doesn't happen anymore.
42 They're fairly -- they're able to operate all over the
43 Fish River Flats and they're taking a lot of moose.
44 And the problem with two predators together, bears and
45 wolves together, there's no way the moose population's
46 going to come back. And I really don't see any
47 alternative to predator control programs, you know, and
48 I know that's not part of this regulation but we can
49 stop people from hunting but it's not going to do it.
50 Hunting bull moose doesn't really make that much
32
1 difference anyway as long as you have enough bulls to
2 provide for reproduction, killing bull moose doesn't
3 affect the population and the bull/cow ratios are fine.
4 It's the cow to calf ratios that are the problem. And
5 the only way to change that, I think, is through
6 predator control.
7
8 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Elmer.
9
10 MR. SEETOT: I think I have stated in
11 the past, you know, for predator control, the
12 regulations are in place for the residents or for the
13 people to encourage other people to hunt these
14 predators, we're the ones that are being affected.
15 We're putting pressure on State and Federal agencies,
16 they already have that number in place. We, the
17 village people, like I said we don't see bear hunting
18 in our area anymore, we have to be more active in the
19 management of predators if we want to see our wildlife
20 resources, ungulates, the moose, the caribou, the
21 reindeer to be out there.
22
23 We could talk forever on bear
24 management but it is up to the people in the subunits
25 to actively hunt in order to get these numbers down,
26 and that's the main problem.
27
28 I'm a subsistence hunter, when things
29 don't go wrong, I might be pissed off at that, I'll get
30 on people that regulate, that's the perspective of some
31 people, but for me to speak out for my community and
32 for the subregion, you have to take things that you
33 learn from actual observation, from people saying that
34 to you over and over again and from elders, actively
35 manage the resources so that when it comes down to
36 predator control, you know, you don't have no, oh, I
37 think I'll let you leave those alone because we have
38 only one for the whole state, stuff like that.
39
40 But these resources, we can actively
41 speak about them but it's for us, as residents, of the
42 subunit to actively participate or encourage others to
43 participate in the harvest of these resources. The
44 more you harvest, the more the resources will be
45 according to what our elders have passed down. If you
46 waste the resources or if I want to argue with Peter
47 Buck on the moose within that area, we could set up an
48 argument, and then unforeseen circumstance can come
49 into play, you argue about animal too much, it won't be
50 there for you, according to what has been passed on
33
1 down from generation to generation on wildlife
2 management and techniques learned over the years by the
3 elders.
4
5 Western society might have a different
6 aspect or side of it but they're pretty much
7 interrelated in the way how we manage the resources so
8 it's just a matter of people participating in order to
9 have good control of the resources in their area.
10
11 Thank you.
12
13 MR. BUCK: The White Mountain area it
14 was our tradition the values that we hunt bear and if
15 they find tracks of a bear they track the bear down and
16 kill it and that's the way we did it, I mean then it
17 was just handed down from tradition to tradition, just
18 to completely do that. And I know that we can't do
19 that right now but speaking of the bears and the
20 wolves, predators, the wolves nobody has really told me
21 that the wolves are doing anything. But I'd like to
22 talk about the bears and encourage the tribal councils
23 and the tribal coordinators and the people that do get
24 bears, that they should develop -- with the technology
25 that we have that you could develop a website where
26 that if you do take a bear, you got to know that in
27 Japan they pay a lot, a lot of money just for the bear
28 paw, and the bladders and stuff like that. So if you
29 can get your coordinators to get the hunters together
30 and then you have a lot of money coming out of that
31 bear, if you actually have a buyer, that's what I'd
32 like to see, that way we have -- you know we make money
33 off of getting rid of the bears plus you're doing a lot
34 of people a favor.
35
36 Thank you.
37
38 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Well, before we can do
39 that, Peter, we're dependent upon those agencies to
40 make those things legal because currently they're
41 illegal.
42
43 Letty, why isn't 22B West in intensive
44 management for moose? We are doing all we can,
45 unfortunately at the Federal level by maintaining the
46 closure, other than stopping the harvest, but you guys
47 got a few more avenues available to you?
48
49 MS. HUGHES: Well, that is a good
50 question and that's something I would actually feel
34
1 more comfortable passing on to the area biologist,
2 which would be Tony Gorn.
3
4 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Okay, well, hopefully
5 you've heard enough here that we'd like to see a little
6 more proactive management by the Department on this
7 area.
8
9 Tim.
10
11 MR. SMITH: I'm glad you brought that
12 up, Mike. I mean that's one thing that I think we
13 should consider on the Seward Peninsula is having an
14 experimental area where we remove predators, you know,
15 not by killing, but, you know, what they've been doing
16 is translocating bears from an area and measuring the
17 effects. And I don't know if 22B would be the best
18 area for doing that but pick an area on the Seward
19 Peninsula and let's try it. I mean I think the Seward
20 Peninsula would be an excellent test area for that
21 because we've got quite a bit of data over the long
22 period on the ungulate populations and on the predator
23 populations and we should -- this would be as good a
24 place as any to try predator removals. What they do is
25 they go in and dart the bears, move them to another
26 area, you know, release them unharmed and just see what
27 affect that has on reproduction. I think if you did
28 that in 22B you'd see -- you'd have to do both bears
29 and wolves but you would see a dramatic increase in
30 moose calf survival, that would be my prediction.
31
32 The other species that would really
33 benefit from it would be reindeer, and there's a lot of
34 data on reindeer fawn survival.
35
36 And so I think it might be within this
37 Board's jurisdiction to recommend doing an experiment
38 like that somewhere on the Seward Peninsula.
39
40 CHAIRMAN QUINN: All right. Any more
41 discussion on the motion.
42
43 (No comments)
44
45 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Someone want to call
46 the question.
47
48 MR. BUCK: Question.
49
50 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Okay. All those in
35
1 favor of the motion to continue the closure say aye.
2
3 IN UNISON: Aye.
4
5 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Any opposed.
6
7 (No opposing votes)
8
9 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Motion carries. Next
10 one.
11
12 MS. BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
13 WCR10-13, closure location is Unit 22D for that portion
14 within the Kougarok, Kuzitrin and Pilgrim River
15 drainages is for moose. Closure dates from September
16 1st to September 14th except by Federally-qualified
17 subsistence residents of Units 22C and 22D.
18
19 Justification for original closure.
20 The Board adopted WP02-34 revising the moose season,
21 harvest limit and restricting harvest to Federally
22 qualified subsistence users for the conservation of a
23 declining moose population and to provide Federally
24 qualified subsistence users with an opportunity to
25 harvest moose on Federal public lands in Unit 22D. The
26 Board also adopted Proposal WP02-35, which further
27 restricted moose harvest to rural residents of Unit 22C
28 and 22D based on an ANILCA Section .804 analysis.
29
30 Population estimates of moose in 22D in
31 2006 were 1,565 moose with a confidence interval of 22
32 percent giving the range 1,208 to 1,929 and in the
33 Kuzitrin River drainage specifically the population
34 estimate was 966 moose with a 29 percent confidence
35 interval, that gives a range of 687 to 1,246, which is
36 still below the ADF&G management goal of increasing and
37 stabilizing the total Unit 22D population to 2,000 -
38 between 2,000 and 2,500 moose.
39
40 In March 2009 ADF&G completed spring
41 recruitment trend counts in Eastern Unit 22D including
42 portions of Kuzitrin, Kougarok and Pilgrim River
43 drainages and classified 700 moose and found seven
44 calves to 100 adults for six percent recruitment.
45 ADF&G conducted sex and age composition surveys in the
46 fall of 2010 and data is still be compiled and will
47 conduct population surveys in the spring of 2011.
48
49 Moose harvest within the affected area
50 has remained relatively stable for the years 2004 to
36
1 2008 with a fall harvest between 34 to 44 moose. The
2 State fall season is closed by emergency order when 58
3 bulls are harvested and the harvest quota for this
4 portion of Unit 22D is not consistently filled.
5
6 The OSM recommendation is maintain the
7 closure. The Unit 22D moose population for that
8 portion within the Kuzitrin, Kougarok and Pilgrim River
9 drainages appears to be stabilizing, however, the
10 population is still below ADF&G management goals and
11 the harvest is generally done by local residents. The
12 2008 bull/cow ratio of 33 bulls to 100 cows is much
13 improved from the 2005 bull/cow ratio 20 bulls to 100
14 cows which may be attributed to the reduction in moose
15 harvest due to the closure and due to the harvest quota
16 that is in place, however the calf/cow ratio in 2008 of
17 10 calves to 100 cows is still a concern making
18 recruitment too low to increase the population size.
19 Therefore, Federal public lands should remain closed to
20 non-Federally-qualified users for the conservation of a
21 healthy population and to allow the continuation of
22 subsistence uses of moose.
23
24 Thank you, Mr. Chair.
25
26 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Well, I guess the
27 statement that catches my eye in addition, and somewhat
28 contradicts your support to maintain the closure is
29 that the State fall season is closed by emergency order
30 when 58 bulls are harvested and the harvest quota for
31 this portion of Unit 22D is not consistently filled.
32 However, part of the reason it's not consistently
33 filled is because the Department doesn't give us enough
34 time to hunt and that should be altered.
35
36 Let's see, Letty, I got to probably ask
37 you, ANS figures for this portion of Unit 22D and are
38 we meeting those?
39
40 MS. HUGHES: To the Chair. I believe
41 that, you know, the ANS portion is for all of Unit 22,
42 so we're looking at between 250 and 500 moose.
43
44 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Any questions.
45
46 MR. SEETOT: Mr. Chair, I need to
47 comment on that. The Kougarok, Kuzitrin and Pilgrim
48 River drainages, I think right now are being inhabited
49 by at least three roving wolf packs which kind of
50 converge around the Davidson River landing area.
37
1 Pretty much they keep their separate territories but
2 pretty much they have the same boundary mark.
3
4 As I stated maybe about five years ago
5 one winter we road the Agiapuk, the Kuzitrin River
6 drainages, all the rivers and creeks that kind of drain
7 into them and we counted pretty much over 20 moose
8 carcasses that were killed by wolves, just within that
9 one -- so many months I worked, not patrolling but
10 riding for animals, so they -- they do pretty much
11 affect the moose population. Last year towards Bunker
12 Hill we counted about 70 to 80 moose congregated in one
13 strip so they were being harassed by wolves.
14
15 Wolf harvest right now I think for
16 Teller and Brevig is that we do not have enough
17 adequate snow cover and the wolves that do converge
18 around the Davidson River area, they come down to feed
19 on Kougarok Reindeer Herd, so that's their food source
20 that they've been kind of claiming along with the
21 bears. When you don't disturb their feeding patterns
22 for a number of years these animals will claim the
23 reindeer herd as their own and will defend and when
24 possible defend their food source, so that's what we're
25 kind of looking at. For the moose population in these
26 areas I think it's -- like I said, might be constant,
27 they're migrating to different areas due to maybe smoke
28 or other activities but moose has been a very important
29 food source for our people, at least, number one being
30 reindeer but reindeer being kind of pushed aside
31 because of their availability, moose is pretty much
32 predominate meat source that they get -- that they look
33 forward to within the area.
34
35 But I think that needs -- like I said
36 predation is a big factor in the numbers.
37
38 We don't use the harvest animals all
39 the time, it's just a matter of access when -- when the
40 seasons are right for the residents back home.
41
42 Thank you.
43
44 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Okay, anybody want to
45 make a motion on this closure.
46
47 MR. SMITH: I have a question first.
48
49 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Oh, go ahead.
50
38
1 MR. SMITH: Does the Department have
2 any plans to do any of the type of research that would
3 be needed to determine what the problem is with moose
4 populations in Unit 22?
5
6 MS. HUGHES: Through the Chair to Mr.
7 Smith. I think I understand what you're saying. What
8 we've done the last five years, we just finished up a
9 project doing, you know, calf weight in Unit 22B and C.
10 We've done that the last five years. And that's -- and
11 then other for our basic, you know, composition and
12 surveys and so forth, as of right now what further on
13 what we want to do other than habitat surveys, we don't
14 have any plans.
15
16 MR. SMITH: Just follow up on that
17 Mike.
18
19 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Yes.
20
21 MR. SMITH: Just to follow up on that,
22 I haven't looked carefully at your calf weight study
23 data but it seems to me that -- my impression was that
24 it didn't show that calf weight was a factor.
25
26 MS. HUGHES: That's correct. And I
27 don't have the data with me so I'm just going off of my
28 memory here, that, you know, during that five year
29 project there was two years of very high snowfall, you
30 know, like an average of like 112, 114 inches, and even
31 then, even though the calf weights were a little bit
32 lower, I mean we still didn't see for the next year
33 anything that was significant that it was detrimental
34 to the population. But it's a really good, you know,
35 base off of trend line that we can use for later on if
36 we want to go back and look at and see, well, what else
37 is going on with the population, or we see any changes.
38
39 MR. SMITH: I'd just like to follow up.
40
41 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Go ahead.
42
43 MR. SMITH: I mean I think this is the
44 root of our problem is, we don't have any useful
45 scientific information for managing moose. You know,
46 we know the moose populations are down and not
47 recovering, we don't know what the problem is. We
48 really don't know even -- we don't even have good
49 guesses on what the problem is, except predation, you
50 know, predation stands out as one thing where, you
39
1 know, you know that wolves and bears are eating
2 something and we also know that there are a lot less
3 prey species out there. There's a lot fewer reindeer
4 on the Seward Peninsula than there were 25 or 30 years
5 ago. What else are there, they have to eat something,
6 they're meat eaters.
7
8 The only thing I can think of that
9 would have any benefit for our moose populations would
10 be predator reduction.
11
12 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Okay, I'm still
13 waiting for a motion.
14
15 (Pause)
16
17 CHAIRMAN QUINN: I can't make one.
18
19 MR. MARTIN: Move.
20
21 CHAIRMAN QUINN: All right motion to
22 support the closure?
23
24 MR. MARTIN: (Nods affirmatively)
25
26 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Do I hear a second.
27
28 MR. BUCK: Seconded.
29
30 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Seconded by Peter
31 Buck. Any discussion.
32
33 MR. SEETOT: Mr. Chair. To Ms. Cole.
34 I think how do you -- or maybe to the State, how do you
35 determine how much moose should be in a certain area,
36 like subunit 22B? They stated that it should be
37 between 1,000 to 1,200, is that numbers that can
38 survive or live on that certain tract of land, like 22B
39 or is that for the whole subunit, or for the whole
40 unit, on how much a certain number should be on that
41 subunit?
42
43 MS. BROWN: Through the Chair. Mr.
44 Seetot. That is actually an ADF&G objective so I'm
45 going to have to pass that to Letty.
46
47 MS. HUGHES: Through the Chair to Mr.
48 Seetot. That's a good question. And I think you're
49 referring to the ANS number. That's actually something
50 that comes up through the Board of Game of what's
40
1 amount necessary, you know, for, you know, users within
2 22. And so that's for all of Unit 22 and then for
3 management purposes, you know, we break it down into
4 what would be harvest rate for each subunit such as 22B
5 or 22D, the Kuzitrin, and then, you know, we also base
6 it off of, you know, moose surveys as well that we're
7 doing.
8
9 MR. BUCK: Mr. Chair.
10
11 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Go ahead.
12
13 MR. BUCK: I'm saying probably for the
14 research being done to study an area of well the unit
15 that has the least amount of game should be studied by
16 ADF&G so that we could have our resources right up
17 there, all the information there so we can make
18 decisions. But the unit with the least amount of game
19 should be studied first so that we can know what's
20 going on.
21
22 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Any more discussion on
23 the motion.
24
25 MR. SMITH: I'd just like to follow up
26 what you said, Peter. I think we just heard that the
27 Department's not going to do any of those types of
28 studies. They're going to continue to do counts and
29 document numbers as well as possible, but studies to
30 determine what's causing the numbers to stay low are
31 not in the near future. I think that's the way I
32 understood it.
33
34 MR. KEYES: This is Anthony. Maybe we
35 could make a suggestion for them to start studying the
36 animals while they're doing the counts during every
37 springtime.
38
39 CHAIRMAN QUINN: All right, does
40 someone want to call the question.
41
42 MR. SEETOT: Question.
43
44 CHAIRMAN QUINN: All those in favor of
45 the motion to support the continued closure say aye.
46
47 IN UNISON: Aye.
48
49 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Opposed.
50
41
1 (No opposing votes)
2
3 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Motion carries. Okay,
4 we'll do the next one for 22D and then we'll take a
5 short break.
6
7 MS. BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
8 WCR10-14 is on Page 50 of your book. Unit 22D for that
9 portion west of the Tisuk River drainage and Canyon
10 Creek and it's for moose. The closure dates are
11 December 1st through December 31st.
12
13 Justification for original closure. In
14 May 2002 the Federal Subsistence Board adopted WP02-34
15 to revise the moose season, harvest limit and restrict
16 harvest to Federally-qualified subsistence users for
17 the conservation of a declining moose population and to
18 provide Federally-qualified subsistence users with an
19 opportunity to harvest moose on Federal public lands in
20 Unit 22D. The Board also adopted WP02-35, which
21 further restricted moose harvest to the rural residents
22 of Unit 22C and 22D based on an ANILCA Section .804
23 analysis.
24
25 Current resource abundance related to
26 management objective. Unfortunately specific survey
27 data is not available for this portion of Unit 22D,
28 that portion west of the Tisuk River drainage and
29 Canyon Creek but only for Unit 22D as a whole. ADF&G
30 does not have specific population objectives for Tisuk
31 River drainage due to very poor moose habitat. ADF&G
32 did conduct sex and age compositions within 22D in the
33 fall of 2010 and those results are still being compiled
34 and population surveys in spring 2011 will be conducted
35 shortly.
36
37 The current survey efforts by ADF&G
38 combine the Tisuk River drainage with the Kuzitrin,
39 Kougarok and Pilgrim River drainages with the focus on
40 the latter, due to the Tisuk River drainage having such
41 poor moose habitat.
42
43 There has been no reported harvest
44 under the Federal permit system for this portion of
45 Unit 22D. The moose population for this portion of
46 Unit 22D continues to exist in low numbers and at a low
47 density. While there is little data regarding that
48 portion west of the Tisuk River drainage and Canyon
49 Creek there are no indications that there has been any
50 increases in moose population to justify non
42
1 subsistence harvest, therefore the closure should
2 maintained.
3
4 The OSM recommendation is to maintain
5 the closure.
6
7 Thank you, Mr. Chair.
8
9 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Any questions. Tim.
10
11 MR. SMITH: I just have a question,
12 what land is involved here, what Federal lands are
13 there?
14
15 CHAIRMAN QUINN: You got a map there
16 all rolled up.
17
18 MR. SMITH: This one?
19
20 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Yeah. And that should
21 show you what Federal lands are in that particular
22
23 MR. SMITH: Okay.
24
25 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Yeah, there's not a
26 lot but there's a little bit there.
27
28 MR. SMITH: I see it now. I see it
29 now, yeah, there's a little bit.
30
31 MR. SEETOT: Mr. Chair. I think around
32 that area for around the Tisuk and the Canyon River
33 area there's very little willows and something for them
34 to kind of hide in and feed on the -- other than the
35 river and creek systems around there, that portion is
36 rarely used by residents of Teller and Brevig, other
37 than the harvest of wildlife -- I mean other than
38 harvest of waterfowl due to accessibility and then, you
39 know, to -- it doesn't support that much moose other
40 than probably a stopping place, their migration from
41 one area to another.
42
43 But there are some moose in that area
44 but due to the terrain it's really -- I really haven't
45 used that for moose or muskox harvest because you just
46 don't, you know, go down there and say oh that terrain
47 is too rough I can't make it, so we harvest animals
48 there that are better for us to harvest -- I mean for
49 -- better terrain, economics, weather factors, those
50 all come into being and that area isn't -- or hasn't
43
1 been used by me for -- other than other uses. But I
2 have harvested -- and moose other than maybe just
3 during the early fall season when you're berry picking,
4 you know, when opportunity arises then you'll harvest
5 something that you haven't harvested for the coming
6 season but that terrain offers very little brows for
7 moose other than the ones that are probably there or on
8 their way to other places.
9
10 Thank you.
11
12 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Okay. Any other
13 discussion.
14
15 MR. SEETOT: Mr. Chair. I'll make a
16 motion to support the closure for that portion of Tisuk
17 and Canyon River area.
18
19 MR. KEYES: Second.
20
21 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Okay. Motion by
22 Elmer, second by Tony. Any discussion.
23
24 (No comments)
25
26 CHAIRMAN QUINN: If not call the
27 question.
28
29 MR. BUCK: Question.
30
31 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Question. All those
32 in favor of the motion to support the continued closure
33 say aye.
34
35 IN UNISON: Aye.
36
37 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Any opposed.
38
39 (No opposing votes)
40
41 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Motion carries. Okay,
42 folks let's do about 10 minutes.
43
44 (Off record)
45
46 (On record)
47
48 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Okay, we're back to
49 work.
50
44
1 REPORTER: Mike.
2
3 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Back to work, and
4 Cole, you can continue with 16.
5
6 MS. BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
7 Wildlife Closure Review 10-16 is in Unit 22E and it is
8 for moose. The closure dates are August 1st through
9 March 15th.
10
11 Justification for original closure.
12 Federal public lands were closed by the Federal
13 Subsistence Board due to conservation concerns for
14 declining moose population and to provide Federally
15 qualified subsistence users an opportunity to harvest a
16 limited number of moose on Federal public lands in the
17 affected area of Unit 22E.
18
19 The Board adopted WP02-34, which
20 narrowed the moose season, revised the harvest to bull
21 only and restricted the harvest to Federally-qualified
22 subsistence users within Unit 22D and Unit 22E based on
23 conservation concerns for the moose population and to
24 provide for the continuation of subsistence uses of
25 moose on Federal public lands in the units.
26
27 ADF&G plans to conduct population
28 surveys for Unit 22E in spring 2011 so the most current
29 population estimates of moose in 22E were conducted in
30 2006. An estimated 587 moose with a confidence
31 interval of 18 percent with a range of 420 to 778,
32 which is well above the ADF&G management goal of 200 to
33 250 moose.
34
35 The sec and age composition survey was
36 scheduled in the fall of 2010 and a population survey
37 scheduled for spring 2011 so we'll have more current
38 data available soon.
39
40 The recruitment rate in 2006 was 18
41 percent with 22 calves at 23.5 percent plus or minus
42 confidence interval.
43
44 The annual harvest in Unit 22E has been
45 relatively low and hunter effort typically occurs in
46 the first general harvest season between August and
47 December. Between 2004 and 2008, the combined average
48 annual hunter success for State and Federal hunters has
49 been approximately 42 percent in Unit 22E. Access by
50 road or river and the use of ATVs and other off-road
45
1 vehicles allows harvest prior to snowfall although the
2 use of ATV and other off-road activities is not allowed
3 on National Park Service administered lands.
4
5 OSM recommendation is to initiate a
6 proposal to modify or eliminate the closure. In 2010
7 the Federal moose season was extended an additional
8 three months until March 15th and the affects on the
9 moose population in Unit 22E are yet -- are not yet
10 known. Even though the harvest of moose by Federally
11 qualified subsistence users has historically been
12 small, the new Federal extended season could result in
13 a higher harvest, however, the population trend has
14 shown a high increase of moose in Unit 22E. ADF&G is
15 scheduled to conduct age and sex compositions, they did
16 that in the fall of 2010 and we'll know the data of
17 that soon. Population surveys in spring 2011 will
18 provide more current information on the moose
19 population.
20
21 Therefore, after these are completed a
22 proposal can be analyzed to determine if the population
23 is still above management goals and warrants the
24 removal of the closure on Federal lands.
25
26 Thank you, Mr. Chair.
27
28 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Okay, so
29
30 REPORTER: Mike.
31
32 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Okay, thank you. So
33 you're saying we should do the proposal to remove the
34 closure but there'll be new information available when
35 that goes before the Board?
36
37 MS. BROWN: That's correct. Right now
38 the trend has shown an increase in that unit from
39 previous census, and so if the trend continues after
40 this most recent information then most likely the
41 proposal will show a recommendation to lift the
42 closure. But we won't know that unless we go through
43 the proposal process and we can utilize this data that
44 has just been collected in the fall of 2010.
45
46 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Well, when's the
47 Federal Subsistence Board take on this proposal?
48
49 MS. BROWN: If you submit the proposal
50 within this cycle, today, with what we're doing here or
46
1 in the near future, before March 24th, when the
2 deadline stops, it'll be next January that the Federal
3 Subsistence Board will address it.
4
5 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Oh, almost a year.
6
7 Well, then we get a chance to go over
8 it again in October?
9
10 MS. BROWN: Uh-huh. (Affirmative)
11
12 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Letty, what's
13 different about 22E that things are getting so much
14 better there but not in some other places, or at least
15 not as much?
16
17 MS. HUGHES: To the Chair. You know,
18 all I can tell you is, I mean, for why we don't really
19 know, I mean the harvest, overall harvest up there is
20 fairly low, so there's not a lot of hunting pressure up
21 in 22E. So we can assume that habitat's, you know,
22 well, but without doing any further studies, you know,
23 I can't say.
24
25 CHAIRMAN QUINN: At the State level
26 this hunt is currently a harvest ticket hunt, correct,
27 the whole of 22E, for moose?
28
29 MS. HUGHES: That is correct, for
30 residents.
31
32 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Okay.
33
34 MS. HUGHES: Non-residents require a
35 registration permit.
36
37 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Okay, I see that now.
38 I'm assuming 22E was a registration permit for
39 residents at some point in the past, I've forgotten,
40 when did it become a harvest ticket hunt for residents?
41
42 MS. HUGHES: I do not know that answer.
43 From the time I've been here I know it's been a harvest
44 ticket.
45
46 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Oh, harvest ticket.
47
48 MR. GORN: Through the Chair. This is
49 Tony Gorn. I'm the Unit 22 area biologist. So a
50 couple things have happened up in 22E. Letty, I think,
47
1 actually did a nice job in describing partly up in 22E
2 why the moose population is as high as it is, and other
3 areas the Seward Peninsula have declined. I mean
4 partly we really don't know.
5
6 But one of the things that we did, I
7 believe it was in 2003, is we worked through the
8 Advisory Committees, we worked through the RAC, and we
9 worked with the villages of Shishmaref and Wales to
10 shorten the moose season. That was after one of our
11 counts found less than 200 moose up in the area. And
12 at that point we tried to curtail the harvest of
13 antlerless moose. Through some meetings with the
14 communities up there, we began to understand that there
15 was some level of both reported, but also unreported
16 anterless moose harvest so we changed the season and
17 bag limit to allow -- to continue allow moose hunting
18 opportunity but only for antlered bulls.
19
20 And then the second thing you just
21 asked about registration permits and harvest tickets,
22 up in 22E that's always been a green harvest ticket.
23
24 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Oh, it never did
25 go
26
27 MR. GORN: It's never been a
28 registration hunt.
29
30 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Oh, interesting, okay.
31 Any other questions. Tim.
32
33 MR. SMITH: I have a question for you.
34 How much
35
36 REPORTER: Tim. Tim.
37
38 MR. SMITH: impact do you
39 think
40
41 MR. SMITH: Tim, microphone.
42
43 MR. SMITH: the guided bear
44 hunting operations out of Shishmaref had to do with the
45 population there?
46
47 MR. GORN: Through the Chair to Mr.
48 Smith. At this point I would say it's really had
49 little effect. There's a couple things going on.
50
48
1 First of all, that population certainly
2 does seem to be above our current management goal. You
3 guys are all familiar with 22E, we're going to go back
4 there this spring and count moose. It'll be very
5 interesting to see what we find because 22E does not
6 have a lot of winter moose habitat. So the idea that
7 there were 600 moose up there in 2006 was a surprise, I
8 think to a lot of people.
9
10 To answer Mr. Smith's question, I
11 really think at this point the non-resident or the
12 guided non-resident opportunities had little impact.
13 And that's probably due just to the remoteness of the
14 area. Back in 2001 when we had these wide sweeping
15 regulatory changes related to moose, we immediately
16 started to see some of the moose hunting effort that
17 was based on the Nome road system shift into 22E. But
18 even with that, there's just not that many people that
19 will put in the miles to get into 22E. You know, it's
20 remote and it's tough to get to.
21
22 The other thing that is potentially
23 curtailing some of the non-resident hunting effort is
24 even though the population is at approximately 600
25 moose right now, the non-resident hunting opportunity
26 is limited to 10 registration permits. So although
27 there is opportunity there really isn't that much.
28
29 MR. SMITH: Maybe I didn't state my
30 question clearly.
31
32 I was wondering what the guided bear
33 hunting, what's been the guided bear harvest up there,
34 or just the total bear harvest in 22E in the last few
35 years?
36
37 MR. GORN: Through the Chair to Mr.
38 Smith. I guess as I sit here right now I can't tell
39 you what just that harvest is. We give out 12 permits
40 a year for 22E; do you know off the top of your head
41 what it is?
42
43 MS. HUGHES: Yeah, through the Chair to
44 Mr. Smith. For the brown bear guiding up in 22E, the
45 permits that -- the drawing permit that we give out is
46 for 22D and 22E, so most of the guiding occurs up in
47 22D. So the harvest of brown bears up in 22E might be
48 one or two a year, if that. It's really low.
49
50 CHAIRMAN QUINN: It's also limited by
49
1 the Federal land, a guide can't operate on the
2
3 MR. SMITH: Oh.
4
5 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Federal land
6 either. There's still no concessions available for the
7 Federal lands there.
8
9 MR. SMITH: I have another question.
10
11 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Go ahead.
12
13 MR. SMITH: One thing that occurs to
14 me, if you're going to have an extended moose hunting
15 season and you open it up to non-local residents, is
16 there a problem -- is there a possibility that people
17 will be hunting both muskoxen and moose at the same
18 time?
19
20 MR. GORN: Through the Chair to Member
21 Smith. I wouldn't use the phrase that it's a problem.
22 To this point it's an opportunity. But the -- I'll try
23 to keep this short for the spirit of time here.
24
25 But, you know, what we found with our
26 muskox hunts, going back to the Tier II days, is that,
27 I think we had inappropriately set harvest rates too
28 high in those early years. In some of those years, on
29 paper, we were suggesting that we could harvest up to
30 an eight percent harvest rate and I think what we've
31 seen, what we've quickly found through census efforts
32 and composition data, is that that's just not
33 sustainable. So within the last couple years we've
34 lowered the harvest rates in all areas on the Seward
35 Peninsula including 22E. And up in 22E right now we're
36 at a six percent harvest rate. Even at that six
37 percent harvest rate, we still don't reach harvest
38 quotas for muskox. So I think that if we were in a
39 situation where maybe we had moose quotas and lower
40 muskox quotas that were being met every year, you know,
41 then we might see a problem, but at this point we just
42 haven't experienced that.
43
44 It's actually been the opposite.
45
46 What we hear from residents that live
47 in Wales and Shishmaref is that they'd like to see more
48 muskox harvested in the area even though we're not
49 getting the current quota, they're still very open to
50 muskox hunting opportunity and it certainly seems like
50
1 the area is -- the residents are also pleased, at least
2 at this point, with moose hunting opportunity.
3
4 MR. SMITH: Just one, I'm still trying
5 to get at -- my concern is I wouldn't want to really
6 increase the wintertime harvest of moose in 22E. I'm
7 just wondering potentially, how many additional hunters
8 do you think would be up there hunting muskox that
9 would also be qualified to hunt moose if this proposal
10 were adopted? I mean how many hunters are we talking
11 about, not only qualified to hunt on Federal
12 subsistence -- in a Federal subsistence hunt, without a
13 closure, that would also be able to potentially hunt
14 muskoxen during the open season.
15
16 MR. GORN: Yeah, through the Chair to
17 Mr. Smith. You know a lot of the environment that we
18 work in is speculation.
19
20 MR. SMITH: Right.
21
22 MR. GORN: But I'm really not
23 comfortable sticking my neck out and guessing how many
24 additional hunters, you know, we might see. It's just
25 -- there's too many things that I don't have control of
26 for me to even make an educated guess. But certainly
27 the opportunity would be there.
28
29 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Okay, Tim, actually
30 that opportunity has been in existence for a little
31 while now, I believe. Even though there's -- we got a
32 closure on Federal land, there's plenty of non-Federal
33 land in 22E that's been available to Alaska residents
34 from anywhere in the state during a winter season for
35 both the moose and the muskox so, you know, people can
36 participate in that hunt for two species, except not on
37 Federal land. So the question is, in the past, so far,
38 how much participation have you seen by, we'll say, the
39 non-local people, in this wintertime, either or both,
40 moose and muskox hunting?
41
42 MR. GORN: To the Chair. Certainly
43 there are examples of falltime combination hunts in
44 22E. I do not know and I'll make my statement and kind
45 of look at my assistant, I am not aware of any January
46 combination muskox moose hunts. Really what we see in
47 22E for muskox harvest is we're just entering right now
48 the time of the year when people really start to go
49 out, you know, days have been short, it's been windy
50 and cold, for -- since January 1st in 22E, and we're
51
1 just kind of getting into the time now where days are
2 going to get longer, there's more light. We see a real
3 pulse of muskox harvest in 22E really beginning the
4 last 10 days of the season in March.
5
6 MR. SMITH: My concern comes in, Mike,
7 is we talk about extending the moose hunt into the
8 spring and, you know, January hunting, you got to
9 really want them, but it's not true in, you know,
10 March, it's a gentlemen's hunt. I can see people
11 potentially going up and coming in and hunting with
12 Clifford and Brian and taking a moose and a muskox at
13 the same time, which, I think could potentially
14 increase the harvest quite a bit.
15
16 You know, maybe I'm misunderstanding
17 what's proposed, but I wouldn't like to see that
18 happen. I don't think we should drastically increase
19 the moose harvest up there.
20
21 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Let me make sure I'm
22 going to understand this correctly, though. It's only
23 the Federal season that is open from August 1st to
24 March 15th. What I've got here in my book is that all
25 the State seasons are closed for moose by January 31st.
26
27 MR. SMITH: Right.
28
29 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Okay. Even if we
30 remove this closure, a non-local resident won't be able
31 to participate in a Federal hunt. Now, Tom, am I
32 correct with that?
33
34 MR. KRON: Yes.
35
36 CHAIRMAN QUINN: People who live in
37 Anchorage and Fairbanks are not Federally-qualified
38 subsistence users.
39
40 MR. SMITH: Oh, okay.
41
42 CHAIRMAN QUINN: They cannot
43 participate in Federal hunts under any circumstances.
44 Now, if the State season mirrored the Federal season,
45 then, of course, they could. So, you know, your
46 concern is invalid for this particular instance because
47 the March 15th date isn't available to non-local
48 people.
49
50 MR. SMITH: I stand corrected and so I
52
1 would move then to adopt the motion to remove the
2 closure.
3
4 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Okay, motion on the
5 floor.
6
7 MR. KEYES: Second.
8
9 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Seconded. Any
10 discussion. go ahead.
11
12 MR. ENINGOWUK: Yes, this is Fred.
13 Just a quick discussion on the reporting requirements.
14 We get our harvest tickets from the State, right, and
15 that season's closed on January 31st, where do we
16 report when we do the Federal hunt, between February
17 and March 31st?
18
19 MR. SEETOT: March 15th.
20
21 MR. ENINGOWUK: Or, yeah, March 15th.
22
23 CHAIRMAN QUINN: That's a Federal
24 question, the Federal guys get to answer it.
25
26 MS. BROWN: You can report that to the
27 land manager, the biologist there, or you could report
28 it to our permit system.
29
30 MR. ENINGOWUK: And do we still use the
31 State permit?
32
33 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Tom, you better step
34 in and help here.
35
36 MR. ENINGOWUK: Because I'm not aware
37 of any Federal permits to hunt moose. Do we use a
38 State permit?
39
40 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Go ahead, Letty.
41
42 MS. HUGHES: Through the Chair to Fred.
43 Yes, unless otherwise brought up by, you know, the
44 Federal offices, it would be on the State general
45 harvest ticket. So you would -- if you were hunting in
46 February, you know, you would still need to have the
47 green ticket and you would fill that out and mail it in
48 as if, you know, you would any other time.
49
50 CHAIRMAN QUINN: I'm going to disagree
53
1 with that Letty. If you got a green harvest ticket in
2 your pocket and you notch February something on it and
3 send it in and the State goes over it, they're going to
4 say you harvested a moose out of season.
5
6 MR. ENINGOWUK: Uh-huh.
7
8 MR. GORN: Mr. Chair. You're raising a
9 very interesting point, and, Fred, that's an excellent
10 question. But actually what's happened in Unit 22,
11 where -- I'll try to be tactful, but the phrase I'm
12 going to use is, essentially out here the State
13 programs eclipse the Federal programs. There's more
14 State land out here. Often times there isn't a strong
15 Federal presence, permits are -- Federal permits are
16 either unavailable or they're difficult to get. So
17 historically residents have used a green harvest
18 ticket. It's flat out confusing at times and it really
19 would be nice if there were Federal permits available,
20 Federal reporting agencies to report to, but that's
21 just not always the case. So if a person goes out,
22 they need something in their pocket, that's what I
23 always tell them. If you go out, you're probably not
24 going to get checked, but if you do, you got to have
25 something in your pocket, take a green harvest ticket,
26 and report on there. And then what happens is we end
27 up sorting all that out after the season. You know,
28 who -- was this moose a State harvested moose or was it
29 a Federal harvested moose.
30
31 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Well, that looks a
32 little problematic because any Alaska resident can use
33 that green harvest ticket and then you've got the
34 potential, however, small, of non-qualified Federal
35 users hunting under a Federal hunt with a green harvest
36 ticket in their pocket and now whoever's going to
37 analyze that data down the road has to decide if that
38 person actually lived in the area and was a qualified
39 hunter. I'm a little surprised that Mr. Adkisson
40 hasn't jumped up here because usually the Park Service
41 deals with some of these Federal permits.
42
43 Cole, go ahead.
44
45 MS. BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
46 There's just a couple things I want to clarify to make
47 sure I understand Member Smith, to make sure we're on
48 the same page with this.
49
50 The recommendation is to initiate a
54
1 proposal to modify or eliminate the closure. So if
2 this doesn't eliminate the closure we have to still go
3 through the process of that. Within initiating a
4 proposal, what we can do is to try and clarify what's
5 been going on here, what has been brought up by the
6 Council, is that we could put in a Federal permit is
7 recommended within the proposal for this time, to get
8 away from it. We have completely restructured our
9 Federal permit system database, it is completely a
10 different system, it is much more user friendly. It is
11 something that can be administered with a lot more ease
12 than what has been done in the past. So that is
13 something that when we develop the proposal, if you
14 guys decide to initiate the proposal, to remove or
15 modify the closure, we can develop that within the
16 proposal.
17
18 Thank you, Mr. Chair.
19
20 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Welcome to the show.
21
22 MR. PAPPAS: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
23 George Pappas, Department of Fish and Game, Subsistence
24 Liaison Team. You hit it right, a big point statewide
25 that we have with the dual management challenges, where
26 Federal regulations will require a permit but does not
27 provide a permit. Additionally, Federal regulation
28 allows -- it basically indicates that if the
29 restrictions on the State permit are -- it's more
30 restrictive than the Federal regulations, then the
31 Federal regulations supersede. The State enforcement
32 efforts disagree with that. A subsistence permit or a
33 hunting license, what have you, authorizes exactly
34 what's in State regulation. Anything beyond that is
35 not authorized. So we've had challenges statewide in
36 areas where we have a permit issued; as you said,
37 someone's hunting in late February with a State harvest
38 ticket, that's a problem for the State enforcement.
39 But we don't want to lose the data. Both sides,
40 Federal and State do not want to lose the data involved
41 with the hunting.
42
43 So, as Cole just mentioned, if you do
44 come up with a proposal to modify the season to allow
45 for additional hunting or what have you, to actually
46 install some type of permitting system. We're all
47 trying together towards making sure all the data's put
48 together and the subsistence user is not at risk in the
49 field because they didn't understand which permit to
50 have.
55
1 Thank you, Mr. Chair.
2
3 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Okay, thanks, George.
4 My experience with Federal permits is all muskox and
5 those permits are always given out by the particular
6 land agency involved.
7
8 Mr. Adkisson. I know you give out some
9 muskox permits, do you give out moose permits for like
10 22D, there's some Federal permits there, isn't there?
11
12 MR. ADKISSON: Mr. Chair. Counsel
13 members. Ken Adkisson. In terms of the Federal moose
14 permits, I don't believe there's been a Federal moose
15 permit issued for a long, long time on the Seward Penn.
16 Basically as far as I know it's gone strictly to using
17 State permits. And most of those areas where I think
18 you'll find language in the regs are probably BLM
19 lands.
20
21 But in terms of the moose, the question
22 of the 22E moose, we could issue Federal permits.
23
24 There's some merit to trying to keep
25 one reporting system and one data source and, you know,
26 as long as we can work with some of the sort of
27 fuzziness or loose ends, you know, that have been
28 brought up, it's probably, you know, worth trying to
29 stay with that. But if it becomes unworkable for any
30 number of reasons, we could get, you know, start
31 issuing Federal permits for that hunt.
32
33 CHAIRMAN QUINN: I know -- just a
34 second Cole -- I'm pretty sure that occasionally tribal
35 agencies, like the tribal council or the IRA Council
36 issue Federal permits in certain areas; apparently
37 that's not happening in Shishmaref or Wales for either
38 the moose or the muskox hunts?
39
40 MR. ADKISSON: Mr. Chair. Yes, we have
41 tried that a few times and sometimes it works and
42 sometimes it doesn't work very well. And the question
43 of where does all of the, you know, getting the data
44 back and where does it go sometimes can be problems.
45 The other problem with that is, is that, you know,
46 since we've gone to this on line system, unless we
47 still, you know, print up a huge bulk of permits,
48 without any kind of really, you know, numbers and then
49 go up and assign, you know, assign them to keep manual
50 logs, you know, that doesn't seem to work very well
56
1 with that system of letting, you know, like the IRA
2 help us assist in issuing permits and for
3 accountability back into the on line system, so this
4 year we've stopped working with the communities that
5 way to try it and see how it worked and frankly it
6 didn't work.
7
8 So, you know, we're left with how to
9 get permits back into the hands of those communities
10 that aren't Nome or aren't road connected or not well
11 plugged into the system.
12
13 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Okay. Go ahead.
14
15 MR. BUCK: Okay, this is the first time
16 I've heard of the permits for moose in this area. I
17 think that the -- I didn't know it, I know my IRA
18 didn't know it and the other IRAs didn't know about
19 this Federal permit because they had -- we -- I think
20 there's occasions where they do need Federal permit for
21 the IRAs especially during potlucks and also providing
22 meat for the elders. That's what they'd like -- what
23 I'd like to see. And this is the first time I've heard
24 of the Federal permit for moose and I'd like to have
25 the IRAs and traditional councils notified that this is
26 a possible process.
27
28 Thank you.
29
30 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Cole.
31
32 MS. BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr.
33 Buck. I just want to clarify that that was a
34 recommendation, that is not currently what is being
35 done. That it is an option to put that into the new
36 proposal to have this change into a Federal permit as
37 an option to try and make this an easier process.
38
39 MR. BUCK: Okay, I understand.
40
41 MS. BROWN: So the other thing is that
42 I would like to inform the Council of what has been
43 done with the Federal permit system within the last
44 year. It has been completely overhauled. And, now,
45 finally, through a lot of effort between the Feds and
46 the State to talk to each other, with what the
47 databases are -- before the two databases could not
48 talk to each other, they were completely different, and
49 now there's been an memorandum of understanding, that
50 the information is seamlessly transferred, or will be
57
1 within the next year, to try and get past this, if it
2 comes through on a State harvest ticket and it's a
3 Federal user, and outside of a State season, you know,
4 what's going to happen with that. This is taking steps
5 towards that.
6
7 Now, this has just been done so it
8 hasn't been actually implemented in other areas outside
9 of, really, Unit 13, it's been a test area, the
10 Fairbanks area has been a test area, but this is
11 something that's coming down the road that hopefully
12 will get to the point where we're not going to have all
13 these problems of not understanding what one hand is
14 doing and the other hand is doing.
15
16 Mr. Chair.
17
18 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Okay, Tom, I'm going
19 to cut you off here. Alex I'd like to add this Federal
20 permit stuff to the agenda and we're going to discuss
21 that as soon as finish with this last wildlife
22 proposal. So at this time let's get back to the
23 wildlife proposal.
24
25 I think I got a little bit out of order
26 on the procedure here. And we already have a motion -
27 I've already forgotten -- we already have a motion on
28 the floor, but before we go any further with that
29 motion, I need to follow a step by step procedure to
30 allow various comments. So we've had the analysis from
31 OSM.
32
33 MR. SMITH: You still need a second
34 Mike, you don't have one.
35
36 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Oh, well
37
38 REPORTER: Yes, you do. Yes, you have
39 a second.
40
41 MR. KEYES: I seconded it.
42
43 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Do I?
44
45 REPORTER: Yes, you have a second.
46
47 MR. SMITH: Oh, okay.
48
49 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Oh, okay. All right,
50 so we'll go with -- not yet -- I got to follow this
58
1 procedure, I think, so that we do it properly.
2
3 All right. So after Cole's analysis we
4 get comments from ADF&G, Letty, is anything still need
5 to be said that hasn't already been said?
6
7 MS. HUGHES: To the Chair. To the
8 Council members. No.
9
10 CHAIRMAN QUINN: I think actually you
11 get to either -- no, we'll wait until October.
12
13 Okay, go ahead.
14
15 MR. SMITH: You know, I made the motion
16 to adopt this but I'm assuming, and I guess I need to
17 clarify, but I'm assuming that this is just to get the
18 process started and we'll have another chance to
19 consider it. Because one thing that came out in all
20 the questions is there's an awful lot of unknowns and
21 before I would really support allowing non-local people
22 to hunt in the wintertime and spring up there, I'd want
23 to know -- have a better idea of what the impact might
24 be. Because I could see, potentially, you could take a
25 lot of moose in March if there's going to people up
26 there hunting in March and the moose season's open,
27 potentially you could take quite a few moose and I
28 wouldn't want to do that. But if it's just -- all
29 we're going to do is create some opportunity for
30 people, for local people I'm all for it.
31
32 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Alex.
33
34 MR. NICK: Mr. Chair. I think in order
35 to be on the safe side I think it would be appropriate
36 to ask if there's any other agency
37
38 CHAIRMAN QUINN: I will. I'm getting
39 there.
40
41 MR. NICK: or organizations
42
43 CHAIRMAN QUINN: I got your list.
44
45 MR. NICK: Okay.
46
47 CHAIRMAN QUINN: All right. So ADF&G's
48 done. Now, are there any other agencies, I'll consider
49 that government agencies that wish to comment on this
50 closure.
59
1 (No comments)
2
3 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Okay. And then the
4 next, is any organizations, Nome Eskimo, Kawerak,
5 anybody have any comments on the closure.
6
7 (No comments)
8
9 CHAIRMAN QUINN: I guess there won't be
10 any written public comments because we haven't got it
11 into the system yet.
12
13 Okay. All right. So now we're back to
14 our deliberations and our action. So for the motion on
15 the floor as to, I guess, we'll make a proposal -- the
16 motion is to submit a proposal to remove the closure,
17 okay, any more discussion.
18
19 MR. KEYES: Yes.
20
21 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Go ahead.
22
23 MR. KEYES: My name is Anthony and I'm
24 from Wales.
25
26 The reason why the number of our moose
27 has pretty good number up on it right now is because we
28 don't really go out hunting until towards end of
29 January to March. Weather condition played a heavy big
30 role on us within our region last year and this year.
31 We had now snow up until January. And then when
32 January came around it got too cold, up to now, which
33 is holding us back from going out hunting.
34
35 And to throw in a Federal permit -
36 well, let me back myself up.
37
38 If I were to hunt with a State permit
39 and I'm on Federal land and I can go no further and I
40 wanted that moose right there on Federal land, we are
41 going to get a slap on the hand. so I think as a
42 suggestion is to start sending out Federal and State
43 permits to the moose vendors in the village, that way
44 we don't have to keep coming back and fight for a
45 Federal permit. Because, you know, the majority of the
46 land that is up in that region right now is Federally
47 covered, majority of it. And on my side is the State,
48 we have State land in our portion of our land.
49
50 What I was trying to say was if Fred
60
1 carries a State permit and he stumbles on to be on
2 Federal land, you know, I would strongly suggest to
3 have two permits at that time of departure of your
4 village, that way we don't have to go back and say,
5 hey, I got this in Federal land and I didn't have a
6 Federal permit, now I'm going to get slapped on the
7 hand, I think as a suggestion, as I said, I think you
8 should start sending out Federal and State permits
9 every year. And not only that when I wanted to go
10 moose hunting the tickets weren't there yet so I had to
11 write to Juneau to get my hunting license. So as a
12 suggestion I would like to see the State and the
13 Federal start sending out harvest tickets a month
14 earlier before the season opens because we have to go
15 through a whole bunch of ordeal just to get a ticket.
16
17 CHAIRMAN QUINN: All right. Any other
18 discussion.
19
20 Peter.
21
22 MR. MARTIN: Mr. Chair. I was
23 approached by one of our hunters just recently about
24 the same issue that Mr. Keyes is talking about. and he
25 had been approached by the State official and told that
26 the State season is closed but I also told him, that
27 the Federal season is open. Now, about the things that
28 Mr. Keyes had just talked about, I think it would be -
29 I am in favor of what he's proposing. It's not only
30 the moose season but also the waterfowl too. We always
31 have a hard time in the summertime or spring when we go
32 out waterfowl hunting and we need to have a duck stamp
33 from the State and the Federal. And if these are made
34 available to our councils in our communities it'd be
35 very helpful and that way we would not be encountered
36 by the State or the Federal when we are out in the
37 field.
38
39 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Okay. Well, we'll get
40 into a discussion on Federal permits here in a second.
41
42 A motion's on the floor, seconded.
43 Some discussion. Do I hear a question.
44
45 MR. BUCK: Question's been called.
46
47 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Okay, question's been
48 called.
49
50 All those in favor of the motion to
61
1 submit a proposal to remove this closure say aye.
2
3 IN UNISON: Aye.
4
5 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Any opposed.
6
7 (No opposing votes)
8
9 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Motion carries. Okay,
10 so let's discuss Federal permits.
11
12 Cole and Tom, let me point out what I
13 see is the problem here, it's kind of a problem that
14 doesn't -- well, I could be wrong -- but I'm assuming
15 it doesn't exist very often, and that problem is a
16 Federal season outside of the bounds of the State
17 season. All you got to do is open your book here to
18 that same thing on 22E and you see that the Federal
19 season goes from August 1st to March 15th for moose,
20 but the State season is completely over with on January
21 31st, so we have a approximately six week Federal
22 season that's available to Federally-qualified
23 subsistence users but apparently there's no permit
24 available.
25
26 Since Peter Martin brought it up, I
27 checked the 22A thing. Tony and Letty, is the Federal
28 season January 1st to February 15th for A remainder, is
29 that any different than the State season?
30
31 MS. HUGHES: To the Chair. For our
32 State season it's January 1st through January 31st, and
33 I believe on the Federal side it went through
34
35 CHAIRMAN QUINN: It's February 15th.
36
37 MS. HUGHES: February 15th.
38
39 CHAIRMAN QUINN: All right. So the
40 same problem exists there, and so do you understand
41 what the problem is?
42
43 All right, Tom, go ahead.
44
45 MR. KRON: Yeah, Mr. Chair, and, again,
46 if you've got your regs book handy, the Handy-Dandy, on
47 Page 12, second column on the right there provides
48 general information. Basically Federal law requires
49 that hunters and trappers have the appropriate State of
50 Alaska issued hunting or trapping license to hunt or
62
1 trap under the regulations. And in a number of cases
2 the Federal government does have permits, which we
3 provide and require, where those are not required
4 basically the hunter must comply with the State
5 regulations. In the case of 22E, that we were just
6 talking about, the person would have to have a State
7 hunting license and the green tag with them to
8 participate in that two month period. There's not a
9 permit required there at this point. You know there
10 was discussion here about submitting a proposal. If
11 you look at just moose, for example, on Page 102 and
12 103, in some cases, again, over time, based on
13 proposals that have been submitted, there are Federal
14 permits required for certain hunts. Take 22D, that
15 portion west of the Tisuk River drainage and Canyon
16 Creek, in that case there's a Federal permit required.
17 22D, that portion west of the Tisuk River drainage,
18 Canyon Creek, one bull by State registration permit.
19 And then if you move up to 22B west of the Darbys, it's
20 one bull either State or Federal registration permit.
21 So, again, there's variety here based on how these
22 issues have developed over time.
23
24 In a number of cases, you know, we
25 have, through regulations, you know, provided and in
26 working with this Council, with giving deference to the
27 Council, we have provided Federal registration permits,
28 but if they are not a Federal -- if Federal
29 registration permits are not specifically required,
30 and, again, the case that we were just talking about,
31 22E, under Federal regs, all you need is a State
32 license and the green tag to participate in that late
33 winter moose hunt up there, to be legal based on our
34 regs.
35
36 Thank you, Mr. Chair. Hope that helps.
37
38 MR. SMITH: I got something.
39
40 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Go ahead.
41
42 MR. SMITH: I guess I haven't -- I mean
43 I have to admit I haven't done my homework here, I just
44 noticed that it's a one antlered bull and that really
45 mootifies [sic] the whole issue that, you know, you're
46 not going to find any antlered bulls in February or
47 March so we're not going to do anything, really.
48
49 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Go ahead.
50
63
1 MR. KRON: Mr. Chair. Tim and I went
2 to college together up in Fairbanks in the wildlife
3 management program, but, I guess, just some
4 clarification, he's mostly right. But, again, I think
5 as people know, some of the yearlings might have their
6 antlers during that time of year. You know, the big
7 bulls are going to shed them, but there are going to be
8 a very small portion that would be available but,
9 again, it's very limited.
10
11 Thank you, Mr. Chair.
12
13 MR. BUCK: Mr. Chair.
14
15 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Go ahead, Peter.
16
17 MR. BUCK: On Page 102, 103, you'll see
18 the Unit 22B on September 1st to September 14, one bull
19 by State registration permit between September 1st and
20 September 14th, and then if you go to January 1st to
21 January 31st it says one bull by either Federal or
22 State registration permit. The problem I see there is
23 that in the -- in January there is no fat on the moose,
24 it's just about gone. And if you get it in September
25 they've been eating all summer long and they've been
26 eating all fall and we've got the moose in a real good
27 condition so I don't see how that -- that
28
29 CHAIRMAN QUINN: All right, Tom.
30
31 MR. KRON: Mr. Chair. Just, again,
32 some more historic perspective on the permit issue.
33 You know essentially the Federal Subsistence Management
34 Program, you know, over time has tried to essentially
35 look to the State permit system to address these issues
36 to the extent that was possible, try to keep it as
37 simple as possible for the users. The State, you know,
38 has a large good system throughout the state on these
39 kinds of issues and initially, again, the Federal
40 system had not looked to try to put in permits all over
41 the place for these kinds of issues so we wanted to try
42 to use the State system to the extent we could. In a
43 number of places the State, you know, required that we
44 get our own permits if we're going to do certain
45 things, you know, if we're going to implement proposals
46 that were submitted by the Councils and supported by
47 the Councils and the Board we had to do a permit if we
48 were going to do it. In other cases, the State has
49 allowed us, basically to work with their own permits
50 and their tags, for example. So, again, it varies in a
64
1 bunch of areas here in Norton Sound and across the
2 state. But, again, I think there have been changes, as
3 Cole mentioned, in the permit system, we've got a
4 better system now than we had and I think there'll be a
5 better capability to provide these kinds of issues in
6 the future.
7
8 Thank you, Mr. Chair.
9
10 CHAIRMAN QUINN: All right. So
11 apparently the Federal people are okay with using the
12 State harvest ticket in this particular case and I
13 guess the responsibility for enforcement just falls
14 upon the enforcement people and they got to decide if
15 the guy's legal to be out there hunting or not. So
16 does everybody understand that, unless specified in
17 your season that a Federal permit's required, you're
18 free to hunt under the Federal regs, with either a
19 State permit or -- go ahead.
20
21 MR. KRON: Yeah, Mr. Chair. And,
22 again, relative to the issue that you just talked
23 about, the closure review for 22E moose, you basically
24 -- it sounds like you're going to be talking about, you
25 know, the possibility of a proposal here to consider
26 how you'd want to have it opened it and you could
27 specify in that proposal that you want to have this
28 addressed, via a Federal registration permit issue, for
29 example, depending on how exactly you want to deal with
30 the closure.
31
32 Because, again, one of the next issues
33 on your agenda is the proposal, development of
34 proposals for the wildlife side of things.
35
36 So, thank you.
37
38 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Tim.
39
40 MR. SMITH: I got a question for you,
41 Tom. On the mechanics of this, is a person hunting in
42 a Federal hunt required to report his harvest on a
43 State harvest ticket?
44
45 MR. KRON: If -- again, if there's no
46 Federal permit required you're required, again, to have
47 the State license and the State permit in your
48 possession on the hunt.
49
50 MR. SMITH: But the question is, are
65
1 you required to fill out the harvest report and submit
2 it?
3
4 MR. KRON: Yes. Through the Chair.
5 Mr. Smith.
6
7 MR. SMITH: Okay.
8
9 MR. KRON: You know, I think, again,
10 you know, the basis for all of this resolves around the
11 need to e able to track the harvest, you know, and
12 that's the most important part of the whole drill for
13 the, you know, for the agencies. We want to know what
14 the total harvests are for these populations, spread
15 across Unit 22 and in all of the different units across
16 the state by species.
17
18 Thank you, Mr. Chair.
19
20 MR. SMITH: Follow up.
21
22 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Go ahead.
23
24 MR. SMITH: Well, you know, this is
25 probably a minor issue but it might be a good idea to
26 have a check box on the harvest report to identify if
27 you're taking an animal in a Federal hunt or a State
28 hunt because you'd be using the same report,
29 potentially -- I mean people like to have accurate
30 data. It would be nice to know whether the animal was
31 taken under Federal rules or State rules.
32
33 CHAIRMAN QUINN: And that would also
34 help enforcement.
35
36 MR. KRON: Mr. Chair. Mr. Smith.
37 Again, I think that might be a question that Tony would
38 want to weigh in, to change the green card statewide on
39 the State side. I don't know if they would be willing
40 to do that, I doubt it. But, again, I'm sure Tony's
41 probably seen some green harvest reports come in that
42 aren't consistent with the State season but, probably,
43 hopefully, are consistent with the Federal season.
44
45 Thank you, Mr. Chair.
46
47 MR. GORN: Yeah, through the Chair to
48 Mr. Smith. I could only imagine what Department
49 leadership would say about changing our green harvest
50 tickets
66
1 (Laughter)
2
3 MR. GORN: to track Federal
4 harvest. So I'm not going to go down that road.
5
6 But what I will say and I think
7 everybody here appreciates the fact that, you know,
8 over the years Federal and State biologists have worked
9 very close to set up seasons and bag limits that mimic
10 each other. And if you look at the two different
11 versions of the Handy-Dandy, the Federal version and
12 the State version, you'll see that across Unit 22 in
13 almost circumstances, seasons and bag limits are the
14 same. So the majority of the time hunters are safe if
15 you're just using a State permit.
16
17 There's just only a couple examples,
18 down in 22A, where, frankly that moose season in the
19 southern portion of 22A, that's been changed, I think
20 at the last three Board of Game meetings. It started
21 off in December and it just keeps getting kind of
22 pushed back.
23
24 The example up in 22E for moose, the
25 State and, I guess that's me, at this point, just is a
26 little bit uncomfortable sliding that season all the
27 way to March 15th. That's where we were. You know,
28 15 years ago that's where we were and we just saw a lot
29 of antlerless moose harvest. There's not -- there are
30 antlered bulls out there but there's not a lot
31 available and what we experienced was just a lot of
32 cows being harvested and we all saw what happened to
33 the moose population. So pending what we find here in
34 the next couple weeks, assuming we can get out and do
35 our GSPE, I mean maybe we can revisit that. But, I men
36 the bottom line is that at this point most of the
37 opportunity, you just need a State permit and every
38 year it's just a part of doing business, you know, we
39 end up with a handful of these State permits that we
40 got to sit down and try to sleuth and try to figure out
41 was this a State harvest taken out of season or was it
42 a Federal harvest and most times it's just Federal
43 harvest on a green harvest ticket.
44
45 MR. KEYES: This is Anthony. What I
46 was hearing Tim, was, you know, if you carry a State
47 permit, on that State permit it should have two boxes,
48 State or Federal, that way the workers on the other end
49 who receive that paper can look through it and say, oh,
50 okay, he got it on Federal land, even though it's with
67
1 a State permit, that way we don't have to fumble over
2 getting more paperwork done and everything like that.
3
4 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Tim.
5
6 MR. SMITH: Yeah, my reason for saying
7 that is, as it is now, there'd be no practical way to
8 determine what the effect of changing this regulation
9 would be. There'd be no way to tell if it made any
10 difference at all.
11
12 CHAIRMAN QUINN: You mean our closure?
13
14 MR. SMITH: If we open it, we won't
15 know if there's been a change because we won't be able
16 to tell whether the moose was taken under Federal rules
17 or under State rules, there'd be no way to know. My
18 concern is, I don't know -- I guess we could tell if
19 the total harvest increased but other than that we
20 couldn't tell if it was because more people are hunting
21 in the State hunt or more people are hunting in the
22 changed rules for the Federal hunt. I kind of think
23 that's a problem. I think you should be able to tell
24 what impact your regulation change has made.
25
26 I mean to me it's -- I agree with Tony,
27 the easiest way to do it would be to just have a
28 checked box on something on the State harvest ticket or
29 harvest report if that's what people are reporting
30 their harvest on. To me that would be the simplest way
31 to do it. Otherwise I think you almost have to have a
32 separate harvest report for the Federal hunt.
33
34 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Well, to some extent
35 you can tell by the address on the permit, but I don't
36 know how much the Department looks at that, you know,
37 if the addresses are local then -- but the other thing
38 is that most of the season is a dual season so anybody
39 who's not from the area during that time is hunting
40 under State regs and according to the address on the
41 permit you can tell if non-local participation is
42 increasing.
43
44 Tony, do you -- Mr. Gorn, do you guys
45 look at addresses on harvest tickets?
46
47 MR. GORN: Mr. Chair. Like I said
48 before, every year there's a handful of these that we
49 have to sort out and we end up -- you know, it takes
50 time and we end up sorting out what is Federal harvest
68
1 and what is State harvest.
2
3 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Well, I think where
4 you're going is we're looking at removing the closure
5 so now all these, whoever, these State guys can now go
6 onto the Federal land and hunt and is there a way, by
7 looking at addresses on green harvest tickets to -
8 that you guys can tally up that non-local participation
9 has increased on Federal lands?
10
11 MR. GORN: Well, be patient with me,
12 I'm trying to stay with you here.
13
14 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Okay.
15
16 MR. GORN: I mean I think that's
17 something that we'd be able to tell by where that
18 hunter reported their harvest and then we would be able
19 to see if it was on Federal or State land.
20
21 CHAIRMAN QUINN: No, we want to know if
22 that hunter lived in Unit 22 or did not live in Unit
23 22?
24
25 MR. GORN: Oh, and that, yeah, and that
26 takes time, especially with the harvest ticket because
27 unlike a registration hunt it's not -- I'll use the
28 word, micro-managed, I don't know if that's
29 appropriate, but it's not tracked as closely as a
30 registration hunt. Those harvest tickets, they all get
31 sent to Anchorage and that all takes time, by the time
32 they're entered, but it eventually ends up getting
33 sorted out.
34
35 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Okay. Tim, the other
36 thing we can do is just look at the historical data for
37 this hunt, which is on Page 55.
38
39 MR. SMITH: Yeah.
40
41 CHAIRMAN QUINN: And you can see that
42 participation by all people isn't that high. And I
43 think if you're familiar with -- I mean the thing that
44 drives participation in this hunt to some extent is
45 just the fact that on the Federal land you can't take a
46 fourwheeler onto the Federal land, and that's going to
47 stay the same whether we remove the closure or not, so
48 that's going to be the real limit -- I see, as the real
49 limiting factor in how many non-local people start
50 hunting on Federal land, you know, they're going to
69
1 have to get in a boat in Shishmaref or call up Tony
2 here and go out the road or something, so, you know, I
3 understand your concern but so far we don't have a lot
4 of participation in this hunt.
5
6 MR. SMITH: Yeah, and I know we're
7 making a mountain out of a -- or I'm making a mountain
8 out of a mole hill, but say, for example, somebody sent
9 the harvest report back and it said I took the moose on
10 the Serpentine River, well, that could be taken in the
11 Federal hunt, it could be taken in the State hunt,
12 there would be no way to know really. I mean that's
13 probably not a major problem in this hunt because, you
14 know, you don't expect a big harvest, but it could be
15 in a different situation. It seems like it's something
16 that needs to be addressed at some point, a better way
17 of reporting harvest so you know which hunt the
18 animal's being taken in.
19
20 MR. BUCK: Mr. Chair.
21
22 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Peter.
23
24 MR. BUCK: I'd just like to mention
25 that we -- somebody mentioned fourwheelers. White
26 Mountain Native Corporation opposes any fourwheeler use
27 on the land and so that's not State or Federal
28 regulations, it's just for the corporation purposes.
29 So I thought I'd just mention it.
30
31 CHAIRMAN QUINN: All right. Okay,
32 well, Alex.
33
34 MR. NICK: Mr. Chair. I wanted to give
35 you a couple of examples, hopefully to clarify Mr.
36 Keyes' recommendation to use Federal and State permit
37 with a checked box to indicate the, you know, where the
38 harvest occurred. I wanted to give you a couple of
39 examples that occurred in my region, in Unit 18.
40 There's a moose moratorium, well, actually a couple of
41 areas were designated as moose moratorium in Unit 18
42 and the boundary of Unit 18 and 19A was designated as
43 an .804 situation. Yesterday during the Council
44 orientation I explained part of that. My personal
45 experience and my personal observation about use of
46 State and Federal permits sometimes get complicated in
47 some areas. In some areas there has to be a drawing of
48 permits and in some areas there have to be an allocated
49 number of Federal permits.
50
70
1 For example in Bethel area, when moose
2 moratorium was lifted, under State hunt the permits
3 were made available to all interested folks within the
4 state of Alaska versus where Federal permits were
5 issued only to Federally-qualified users. And that
6 caused some complications but those complications did
7 not really emerge. And to answer some of -- maybe to
8 hopefully qualify -- excuse me -- to hopefully clarify
9 Tony's suggestion, in some cases when a designated
10 hunter permit is issued, State green harvest ticket is
11 not used, only that designated hunter permit serves as
12 a harvest ticket.
13
14 And Tom could clarify some of that, you
15 know, if there's any questions.
16
17 But my personal opinion on Tony's
18 recommendation to issue only one permit under State and
19 Federal that might pose some problems down the road
20 because it has to be a -- might have to be approved by
21 the Board of Game and Federal Subsistence Board.
22
23 Is that okay or not?
24
25 (Laughter)
26
27 MS. BROWN: Sorry, we were just
28 conferring, we had a different understanding of what
29 Mr. Keyes had said. We thought that he and Mr. Martin
30 were proposing to have both a Federal and a State
31 permit, not just one, and then there was discussion on
32 whether Mr. Smith was trying to get the State permit to
33 alter theirs, which, as Mr. Gorn said, would be highly
34 unlikely that they would go for that, but one solution
35 would be then to just have a Federal permit required in
36 this area if you're going to be hunting on Federal
37 lands, then it would be submitted through the Federal
38 system and that would be a record on whether they were
39 hunting with that tag. If they're hunting with the
40 State tag then they submit the State tag on Federal
41 lands, so that way we would be able to -- whether, you
42 know, i don't know if Mr. Gorn wants to go through all
43 the green harvest tickets and do the sleuthing himself.
44 It may be an option.
45
46 Thank you, Mr. Chair.
47
48 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Ken.
49
50 MR. ADKISSON: Mr. Chair. Counsel
71
1 members. Since you seem to be kind of brainstorming
2 that issue, and the question comes up, well, whether
3 you're actually going to physically modify a permit,
4 like the State permit to provide a Federal checkbox, I
5 mean one simple way and then, you know, the State can
6 sure object if they have a problem with this, but you
7 just take the State permit and you're using it for a
8 Federal regulation or the State harvest ticket and you
9 take your animal on Federal land and you just write
10 Federal across the face of the harvest ticket and mail
11 it in or, you know, dispose of it properly and it shows
12 up on the State and then as Tony says, every year they
13 got to sort out a few of these things and then it just
14 becomes a matter for somebody to, you know, match the
15 resident community with the -- you know, what's allowed
16 under the Federal program and you're sort of done. But
17 it does require an extra step in there, you know, to
18 check and make sure that somebody's not cheating. But
19 you're probably not going to get a lot of outsiders
20 doing it because, you know, they shouldn't be there in
21 the first place so they're opening themselves up if
22 they're hunting say in February for a moose and, you
23 know
24
25 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Sure.
26
27 MR. ADKISSON: in 22E on the
28 Federal lands.
29
30 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Well, that sounds like
31 a good idea to me. You know we've got some of these
32 Federal permits around here for the muskox season, so a
33 guy's got to get a State permit and a Federal permit to
34 -- if he wants to hunt the Federal hunt, which for
35 muskox has some slightly different rules. But, you
36 know, if you can take your State permit and keep on
37 hunting for moose in February and March, that seems
38 simpler than having to get another permit and Ken's
39 idea is certainly adequate that the guy can just write
40 on it.
41
42 Tim.
43
44 MR. SMITH: Yeah, I wanted to follow up
45 on what Tony said earlier, about we're not talking
46 about opening up hunting -- a Federal hunt for
47 antlerless moose, are we? You said something about
48 concerns about the increased harvest of antlerless
49 moose, you're anticipating that people would just
50
72
1 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Non-legal harvest.
2
3 MR. SMITH: take antlerless moose
4 because they were unable to find antlered moose?
5
6 MR. GORN: That's correct, Mr. Smith.
7 Through the Chair to Mr. Smith. Yes. And, that's,
8 again, a little bit of speculation on my part but
9 that's what we saw before. By the time -- certainly
10 there is a component of the moose population that still
11 has antlers all the way into March. But by and large
12 most of them are dropped and what we saw the first time
13 around, going back 15, 20 years, is that, you know, we
14 just saw antlerless harvest.
15
16 MR. SMITH: I think that's a valid
17 concern. Because, you know, I can't remember ever
18 seeing an antlered moose in March. There may be some
19 but, you know, I don't see how it's reasonable for a
20 hunter to go out and find one. I just don't think they
21 could. And so if the result of this is to increase the
22 cow harvest, I think it's probably not a great idea.
23
24 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Well, no, lifting the
25 closure is not going to increase the cow harvest. The
26 people who now become legal to hunt on this Federal
27 land by lifting the closure can only hunt during the
28 State season. They can't hunt during that February and
29 March period because that's a Federal hunt only
30 available to Federally-qualified subsistence users.
31 So, you know, if the cow season increases -- or cow
32 take increases it's going to be done by local people or
33 by a small amount of non-local people hunting illegally
34 anyway.
35
36 MR. SMITH: I guess that's what I
37 understood Tony to say is that, that's what he
38 anticipated is that if you get more hunters out there
39 then you're going to get an increased antlerless moose
40 harvest, and I guess that's -- I don't think that's a
41 particular good idea.
42
43 CHAIRMAN QUINN: No, what I heard him
44 say was the State had a resistance to going into a
45 February and March season because they saw antlerless
46 moose harvest in the past. We don't have a State hunt
47 during that time. We have a Federal hunt, I assume,
48 those dates exist because local people asked for those
49 dates and at some point in the past this Council
50 responded to those requests. So even if we remove the
73
1 closure those two months only remain available,
2 legally, to local people.
3
4 Peter.
5
6 MR. MARTIN: Mr. Chair. Even at some
7 point and somewhere I saw a comment that -- but is
8 there going to be a proposal by the State for our units
9 to harvest antlerless moose; does anybody know anything
10 about that?
11
12 CHAIRMAN QUINN: For where?
13
14 MR. GORN: Through the Chair to Peter.
15 So I kind of missed the part of your question, you want
16 to know if there's going to be a proposal from the
17 State for antlerless moose but in what area?
18
19 MR. MARTIN: I think I saw something in
20 black and white about that.
21
22 MR. GORN: In what area?
23
24 MR. MARTIN: And I don't know if I'm
25 correct or not but I would like to find out for myself
26 to clarify that by some State official.
27
28 MR. GORN: So in which area
29 specifically are you talking about?
30
31 MR. MARTIN: All units. All units in
32 state of Alaska.
33
34 MR. GORN: Okay, so you want to know if
35 there's antlerless moose hunting opportunity in the
36 state of Alaska or in Unit 22?
37
38 MR. MARTIN: All units in the state of
39 Alaska.
40
41 MR. GORN: Okay, so in Unit 22 we do
42 have several areas where we have antlerless moose
43 hunting opportunity. We have antlerless moose hunting
44 opportunity in Unit 22D Remainder, it's been on the
45 books for years. The small number of moose taken out
46 of that area, antlerless moose taken out of that area,
47 combined with the antlered bull harvest taken out of
48 that area has worked for decades. The other area where
49 we have antlerless moose harvest in Unit 22 is Unit
50 22C, and that's based on very high moose densities in
74
1 22C and chronically low bull/cow ratios. Locally we
2 have bull/cow ratios around 11 bulls per 100 cows in
3 22C and we currently have the highest densities that
4 we've ever had here. We counted moose here last year
5 and the point estimate for 22C was like 620 moose. So
6 for about almost -- oh, boy, nine years now I believe
7 we've had a limited amount of antlerless hunting
8 opportunity locally here out in Nome.
9
10 MR. MARTIN: In the remainder of 22A,
11 we had a season from January 1st to February 15th,
12 which today is the last day. And this year I know that
13 during the other years that most of our people who are
14 hunters did not get an opportunity to get an antlered
15 moose. And that's why I made the earlier -- earlier I
16 made a comment in proposing from December 15 to January
17 31st to make let our people to hunt more easier and be
18 able to get an antlered moose.
19
20 CHAIRMAN QUINN: We'll take that up
21 here when we review -- go over potential proposals.
22
23 Do you want to say something?
24
25 MR. GORN: (Shakes head negatively)
26
27 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Okay. All right,
28 well, I'm going to cut that discussion off, we need to
29 move on. I'd kind of like to get No. 9 done before we
30 go to lunch even though we're getting close to a lunch
31 time. So Cole and Tom, are you handling this?
32
33 MR. KRON: It's the call for proposals.
34
35 MS. BROWN: Mr. Chair. We're just
36 available to help anyone who wants to draft a proposal.
37 We have proposal forms, if they want to take something
38 up, then we will help them through the proposal
39 process. That's our role here.
40
41 Thank you, Mr. Chair.
42
43 CHAIRMAN QUINN: All right. So you've
44 got the forms with you, you're saying?
45
46 MS. BROWN: Are they back there?
47
48 MR. KRON: No, they're not.
49
50 MS. BROWN: Oh, do you have the forms?
75
1 MR. NICK: They didn't come from
2
3 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Can you
4
5 MS. BROWN: That's okay, we know what
6 information we need so we can discuss it with whoever
7 wants to bring it up, either during the session or off
8 session, at a break, whenever, it doesn't have to be on
9 record to take a proposal. So we're just opening it
10 up. If someone would like to bring it up now we can
11 take that information.
12
13 Thank you.
14
15 CHAIRMAN QUINN: All right. Peter.
16
17 MR. MARTIN: Yes, I would like to have
18 that proposal form.
19
20 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Alex.
21
22 MR. NICK: Mr. Chair. On Page 14 and
23 15 of your Federal book it shows you how to submit a
24 proposal.
25
26 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Oh, you're talking
27 about this one, okay.
28
29 (Pause)
30
31 CHAIRMAN QUINN: All right, so, yeah,
32 how to submit a proposal. Okay, so Peter and anyone
33 else that wants to submit a proposal work with Cole.
34 You don't necessarily have to do it today but you can
35 call her on the 800 number, although I will say from my
36 experience that you guys are so seldom available when
37 somebody calls that number that it's almost pointless,
38 and the
39
40 MS. BROWN: We have direct numbers too.
41
42 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Well, that costs us
43 money.
44
45 MS. BROWN: Oh.
46
47 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Maybe not now that we
48 all have cell phones.
49
50 (Laughter)
76
1 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Tony.
2
3 MR. KEYES: Yes, I would like to come
4 up with a proposal for two places, would be Wales and
5 Shishmaref on the bear population.
6
7 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Okay. Well, I think
8 what I'm going to do is, you know, you guys work with
9 OSM office to craft the proposal and submit it and then
10 in February -- I'm sorry, in October that will be right
11 here in our packet and we'll go over it, you know, you
12 guys will get a chance to speak about it as will the
13 OSM office and we'll all vote to support or not support
14 it. So just work with them, they're available,
15 business hours Monday through Friday.
16
17 Go ahead, Tom.
18
19 MR. KRON: Mr. Chair. In terms of the
20 proposals, if the Council wants to actually submit a
21 proposal as a Council, you could be working on it and
22 just say, you know, here's generally what we want to
23 do, we want to deal with bears and this is the general
24 season and basically charge various people to work with
25 Cole to flesh it out but the Council then could vote to
26 support the concept of -- the general concept of the
27 proposal and then it could be a Council proposal.
28 Alternately, individuals could submit proposals too, so
29 it's just your choice. But if you're going to submit
30 it as a Council it needs to be done through some formal
31 action at this meeting. But you don't have to have the
32 final wording in front of you when you vote, you're
33 just voting on a general concept that the Council would
34 agree on.
35
36 So, again, either way, as a Council or
37 as individuals, you can do it either way, and Cole's
38 available to help, you know, whichever way you go.
39
40 Thank you, Mr. Chair.
41
42 MR. KEYES: Yeah, I would take that
43 approach through the Board members, it'd be much more
44 feasible and everybody would have a better
45 understanding instead of having an individual, by
46 himself go up and say, hey, I need this thing done
47 because -- we might get a better helping hand from the
48 rest of the RAC if we were to do it through our Council
49 members.
50
77
1 CHAIRMAN QUINN: All right. Alex, I
2 was guessing that we would go through the rest of this
3 agenda fairly quickly; is that guess incorrect, from
4 your experience?
5
6 MR. NICK: It depends on the
7
8 REPORTER: Alex. Alex.
9
10 MR. NICK: It depends on the questions
11 and answers.
12
13 CHAIRMAN QUINN: It looks like a lot of
14 stuff but
15
16 MR. KEYES: We should take another day.
17
18 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Yeah, well, I was
19 wondering if we could get through this whole thing in
20 one day but maybe not.
21
22 Okay, here's what I'm going to do
23
24 (Laughter)
25
26 CHAIRMAN QUINN: we're going to
27 adjourn for lunch since it's noon. I'm going to
28 request that the people who want to bring proposals
29 forward just kind of write something down so that you
30 can present it to us when we come back and we'll,
31 hopefully, go through it and then vote and turn it over
32 to them for a little more work at that time.
33
34 All right. So if nobody's got any
35 objections we'll adjourn for lunch and please be back
36 here at 1:00 o'clock.
37
38 MR. BUCK: 1:30.
39
40 MR. SEETOT: 1:30.
41
42 CHAIRMAN QUINN: You want until 1:30?
43
44 MR. BUCK: Yes.
45
46 MR. SEETOT: Yep.
47
48 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Okay, by request 1:30.
49
50 (Laughter)
78
1 (Off record)
2
3 (On record)
4
5 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Everybody's here
6
7 REPORTER: Mike. Mike.
8
9 MR. SMITH: Microphone Mike.
10
11 (Laughter)
12
13 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Yeah, I know. All
14 right, everybody's here that needs to be here.
15
16 We're reconvene at more or less 1:30.
17
18 We were going to take up proposals that
19 the RAC might want to submit and, Peter, I'll let you
20 go first. Do you want to talk about what you gave me
21 here?
22
23 MR. MARTIN: Yes. For a new regulation
24 for
25
26 REPORTER: Peter. Peter.
27
28 CHAIRMAN QUINN: You got to turn your
29 mic on.
30
31 MR. MARTIN: Oh, sorry.
32
33 REPORTER: Thank you.
34
35 MR. MARTIN: Peter Martin, Sr.,
36 Stebbins. My proposal is for a new regulation for
37 Stebbins/St. Michael area unit 22 Remainder moose
38 season from January 1 to February 15, changed to
39 December 15 to January 31. It's a new regulation. And
40 due to low catch of antler moose there'd be no impact,
41 hunters get better chance to get antlered moose, no
42 effect.
43
44 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Okay. All right. So
45 you just want to extend the current -- let's see you
46 want to do this on the Federal side -- oh, from -- oh,
47 okay, you want to start December
48
49 MR. MARTIN: Whoever's in charge -
50 also State and Federal
79
1 CHAIRMAN QUINN: 15th and end
2 January 31st. All right. So that's the proposal he'd
3 like to submit. You got any questions or anything for
4 Peter.
5
6 (No comments)
7
8 CHAIRMAN QUINN: All right. So there's
9 no questions. Do I need to be official, Alex, or can
10 we just kind of say if there's no objection we'll
11 submit the proposal?
12
13 MR. NICK: Mr. Chair. That's how it's
14 handled as long as it's captured by the Staff, unless
15 someone has revisions or recommendation for changes.
16
17 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Okay. Then if there's
18 no objection from any Council members, I'll instruct
19 you to work with Mr. Martin on a proposal from this RAC
20 concerning this change and I'm going to let her have
21 this piece of paper.
22
23 (No objections)
24
25 CHAIRMAN QUINN: So that proposal will
26 come from this RAC but we will have the opportunity in
27 October to review it again and support or not support
28 that proposal and all the various agencies will have
29 opportunity at that time to comment on whether they
30 like or dislike the proposal.
31
32 MR. BUCK: Mr. Chair.
33
34 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Go ahead, Peter.
35
36 MR. BUCK: I'd like to add within
37 proposals like the proposal that we -- or I mean not -
38 add into proposals where I was like talking about
39 earlier, you have the hunt in September where there's
40 no Federal permit added to it and then in January you
41 have the Federal permit allowed. I would like to see
42 that -- I'd like to see the Federal and the State get
43 together and really push subsistence and in order to
44 push these proposals through they should be a
45 subsistence priority where a certain percent can be
46 taken for potlucks and funerals and providing for
47 elders and that certain percent will be added into the
48 proposal so that this subsistence priority can go
49 through.
50
80
1 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Okay. I believe
2 there's already opportunity for communities to do
3 harvest for traditional ceremonies. I don't believe
4 there's any avenue to just harvest for one particular
5 age group but you do have opportunity on the Federal
6 regs to harvest for things like potlatches. I believe
7 you have to work with ADF&G on those.
8
9 MR. KRON: Mr. Chairman. The regs on
10 that are found on Page 13 in the Handy-Dandy. And I
11 know the State has a program as well. But, again,
12 basically working with the area managers there's
13 capability to get permits for funerary and mortuary
14 ceremonies, potlatches.
15
16 Thank you, Mr. Chair.
17
18 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Under the State
19 system, too, you have the opportunity to proxy hunt. A
20 person over -- I think it's over 65 can designate
21 somebody else to take an animal under their permit.
22 I'm not sure if the Federal system has that or not.
23
24 CHAIRMAN QUINN: You do?
25
26 MR. KRON: Yes, Mr. Chair. Mr. Smith.
27 Under your Federal System there is a designated hunter
28 capability described in the regs as well, and Page 17
29 describes that. But designated hunter permits are
30 provided to a lot of the field Staff and are utilized
31 in many areas of the state.
32
33 Thank you, Mr. Chair.
34
35 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Okay. Go ahead.
36
37 MR. RABINOWITCH: Good afternoon, I'm
38 Sandy Rabinowitch with the Park Service. In response
39 to Peter's question I would point out to you, Mr.
40 Chairman, that the Federal Board has, at least in once
41 instance that I know of, established a hunt for elders,
42 and the example that I'm looking at is on Page 57 of
43 the Federal Book. It's a Unit 11 elder sheep hunt.
44 And so my only point is to point out that the Board has
45 done that kind of thing at least once before that I
46 know of.
47
48 CHAIRMAN QUINN: I see that,
49 interesting. Does the person who's 60 years of age or
50 older have to actually do the hunting?
81
1 MR. RABINOWITCH: I'd have to look at
2 it in detail, let me look at it and let you know.
3
4 MR. SEETOT: You could see that, joint
5 permit, it says that. Right there, right on your page.
6
7 CHAIRMAN QUINN: See Unit 11 special
8 provisions, oh, a joint permit for a pair of a minor
9 and an elder. Okay, interesting.
10
11 MR. BUCK: Mr. Chair.
12
13 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Go ahead, Peter.
14
15 MR. BUCK: I would like to include into
16 that if you're getting for an elder I would like to see
17 where the elder's preference be put in that way, if
18 they wanted to, they could get an antlerless moose or
19 whatever.
20
21 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Well, I imagine that's
22 going to take a little work. If there isn't a season
23 for an antlerless moose you're going to have a hard
24 time getting that. Peter, you know, if you want to
25 craft a proposal and work with Cole on it and then
26 submit it, well, we can certainly go over it at the
27 time, or next October, but, you know, you got to work
28 within the legal frameworks that are available and
29 there's a lot of things we all want to do but it just
30 -- they just won't allow it to happen that way.
31
32 All right, now, did Tony and/or Fred,
33 have a proposal they wanted to
34
35 MR. KEYES: I'll wait until I get home
36 and I'll just go ahead and call them from home.
37
38 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Okay.
39
40 MR. KEYES: That way I can get with my
41 IRA Council members and I'll get their idea what they
42 need that I could be able to help them out with.
43
44 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Okay. And, Fred, did
45 you have anything?
46
47 MR. ENINGOWUK: No, not at this time.
48
49 CHAIRMAN QUINN: All right. And Mr.
50 Kron, you just need me or who to say these are okay?
82
1 MR. KRON: You.
2
3 CHAIRMAN QUINN: All right, they're
4 okay.
5
6 (Laughter)
7
8 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Okay. So that's
9 proposals. Let me see I didn't make it real clear that
10 Peter's proposal pertains to Unit 22A Remainder not to
11 all or whatever, it's a local specific proposal.
12
13 All right. Now, we get to move on to
14 the review and finalize the draft 2010 Annual Report.
15 Alex handed us each a copy of that earlier today, let's
16 see, we went over it last October and March,
17 apparently, so you guys need to look it over and make
18 sure you're happy with it.
19
20 MR. NICK: Mr. Chair.
21
22 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Uh-huh.
23
24 MR. NICK: As you remember in October
25 meeting you provided topics for your 2010 annual
26 meeting and then based on the discussions that you had
27 during the meeting I try to capture the issues
28 beginning at bottom of the first page through third
29 page. The first part of the draft Annual Report is
30 modeled after other Councils like YK, and then the
31 issues come from your region based on the discussions
32 that you had in October 2010.
33
34 Now is the time to review it, make some
35 changes, edit, delete or whatever you want to do with
36 it and then we will work on the final Annual Report and
37 then the final copy will be reviewed by the Chair and
38 when it's approved then we'll submit it to the Federal
39 Board.
40
41 Mr. Chair.
42
43 CHAIRMAN QUINN: All right. Well, does
44 anybody see anything they want to add, delete, change.
45
46 Alex, what do you -- either Alex or
47 Tom, what do you know about streamlining the Regional
48 Advisory Council nominations? It's like a year long
49 process and kind of slows things down if we end up
50 losing members for whatever reason.
83
1 MR. NICK: Tom could assist me on this.
2 Streamlining is an idea that not only Regional -
3 Seward Peninsula Regional Advisory Council recommends,
4 other regions are also recommending that because, you
5 know, they think it takes too long for members to be
6 appointed to the Regional Advisory Councils.
7
8 Tom.
9
10 MR. KRON: Mr. Chair. I think, you
11 know, all of you are probably fairly familiar with the
12 process, having gone through it yourself. You're
13 appointed by the Secretary of Interior but before you
14 get to that point there's essentially Alex and usually
15 agency Staff from the various Federal agencies contact
16 the people that have been nominated or have expressed
17 an interest and then, you know, provide that
18 information up through the system, the Federal
19 Subsistence Board here in Alaska, you know, reviews the
20 people that are nominated and ultimately the Secretary
21 makes the decision. But, again, it does take some time
22 and also, as you know, for various reasons, sometimes
23 Council members resign in the middle of their term.
24 But, you know, again, having been through it, each of
25 you, if you've got ideas as to things that could be
26 done to streamline, we're all ears.
27
28 Thank you, Mr. Chair.
29
30 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Tony.
31
32 MR. KEYES: By -- how should I -- did
33 you by any chance get any applications like from
34 Savoonga or Gambell because they're on the -- you know,
35 fishing -- about fish issues I'm pretty sure they would
36 like to know more about what we're trying to do about
37 the fish issue and, you know, they're common people of
38 eating seafood too. So I would like to see Savoonga
39 and Gambell try and jump on board to, you know, get
40 their -- get a better knowledge of what we're doing.
41
42 MR. NICK: Mr. Chair. Mr. Keyes. We
43 do have a list of applications that were received and
44 application period is still open now until 18th of this
45 month so they have that time, between now and then to
46 submit application for RAC membership.
47
48 CHAIRMAN QUINN: We did have a member
49 from Savoonga in the past, she came to a couple
50 meetings but I think she missed a couple, I think her
84
1 term expired and nobody else applied from out there.
2
3 Go ahead.
4
5 MR. KRON: Mr. Chair. We would
6 definitely, you know, encourage all of the current
7 Regional Council members to talk to people that they
8 think might be interested, encourage them to submit
9 applications. You know, our office, OSM pays a
10 significant amount of money for newspaper ads around
11 the state. We've got radio ads in a number of places,
12 both in English and various Alaska Native languages.
13 So we do a fair amount trying to get applicants, but I
14 think a really effective way to get applicants is for
15 the members on the Councils, themselves, to talk to
16 people they know from areas that may not be represented
17 and definitely when your term is reaching an end, you
18 know, we'd encourage you to resubmit an application to
19 stay on the Council. But, again, the more applicants
20 the better.
21
22 Thank you, Mr. Chair.
23
24 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Alex, I'm looking at
25 our roster and I see some seats expire in 2011, those
26 particular seats need to apply this time period in
27 order to retain their seat if they're so appointed.
28
29 I'm trying to remember the legal part
30 of this, there is no actual break up of members having
31 to be from any one village as long as they're from
32 within the region; is that correct, I mean we could
33 conceivably have a Council made up of all Nome members
34 or all Shishmaref members, depending on who applies and
35 gets appointed.
36
37 MR. NICK: Mr. Chair. I believe the
38 appointments of RAC membership is based on knowledge.
39 And in some areas there's, you know, like Tom mentioned
40 there's a review of applicants by interagency panel and
41 then that's submitted to the Federal Board and it's
42 reviewed by InterAgency Staff Committee before it's
43 submitted to the Board.
44
45 MR. KRON: Just a general comment in
46 response, Mr. Chair. I think there would be -- I guess
47 I've seen and heard a desire to try to have broad
48 representation across the region to the extent you can
49 possibly do that but, again, the Federal Subsistence
50 Program works with the applications that it receives.
85
1 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Exactly.
2
3 MR. KRON: But, again, the more
4 applicants, the broader representation that's possible,
5 I think the better the program will work.
6
7 Thank you, Mr. Chair.
8
9 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Go ahead.
10
11 MR. KEYES: I talked to several people
12 to see if they wanted to sign on to be a RAC member and
13 then it always falls down to this, the money is not
14 good enough. That's the number 1 answer I always get
15 from the people I talk to. Even I try to tell them
16 it's not for the money I'm doing, you know, I'm doing
17 it for my community but they would still say, well,
18 with the prices that are, you know, rising every year
19 and you get to Nome and you want to buy some essentials
20 and it doesn't go around to fill up a paper bag or a
21 paper shopping bag, you know, it just -- they downgrade
22 because the per diem that we receive, it's what's
23 holding back a majority of those that want to apply.
24 Believe me I've talked to several people and before
25 they say anything it's the money, it's too low, we're
26 not going to go there because the per diem is not good.
27 And I try to tell them, we're not going there for the
28 per diem we're going there for the villages that we are
29 going to represent but, still, you know, they would
30 still jump on the same wagon and say, no, per diem is
31 too low.
32
33 MR. BUCK: Mr. Chair.
34
35 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Go ahead.
36
37 MR. BUCK: He took the words out of my
38 mouth. I was going to mention that when I was in
39 Anchorage there was a couple of the people, all over
40 Alaska, and they said the compensation for the meetings
41 is real low. And they all agree with that. Also I
42 would like to recommend at least for the RAC committees
43 that an honorarium be included into our per diem.
44
45 Thank you.
46
47 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Tom.
48
49 MR. KRON: Mr. Chair. Just a general
50 response, this question's been asked by a number of
86
1 Councils. We've sent several requests all the way up
2 through the Secretary of Interior's Office to see if it
3 was possible to do this, the answer has come back,
4 twice, that I know of, that we cannot. You know,
5 basically we can provide travel and per diem and that
6 an honorarium is not an option. You know, that doesn't
7 mean you can't ask again but we've already been told
8 twice that we cannot.
9
10 Thank you, Mr. Chair.
11
12 CHAIRMAN QUINN: All right. Well, you
13 know, there has to be some responsibility upon the
14 citizens to participate in this program. You cannot
15 expect for this to be a profitable venture to
16 participate in. And as someone who's never received a
17 dime for any of the time I've spent both here and at a
18 State meeting, you know, I -- I'm taking time off from
19 work today to attend this meeting and tomorrow, and I'm
20 assuming that some of you are too, you know, to some
21 extent this is a volunteer process. And if everybody
22 sitting here and everybody who might listen or read
23 this, if you want your community represented then
24 somebody needs to apply. It's pretty plain and simple.
25
26 I certainly commend the members, every
27 member here now has been here for two or more years,
28 well, except for Tim, because he just got on, but the
29 village guys have all -- some of them -- Peter's been
30 here for over
31
32 MR. KEYES: Decades.
33
34 CHAIRMAN QUINN: He's been here
35
36 (Laughter)
37
38 CHAIRMAN QUINN: You're getting there
39 Tony, be careful.
40
41 (Laughter)
42
43 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Anyway so Tom, I'm
44 assuming we're stuck with this process because it's
45 written into the language of ANILCA and streamlining it
46 is somewhat prevented by that language?
47
48 MR. KRON: Mr. Chair. It's not ANILCA
49 in this case. The other Federal law that we're under
50 is the Federal Advisory Committee Act, FACA, you've
87
1 probably heard of FACA.
2
3 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Yeah.
4
5 MR. KRON: You know, basically it's the
6 process that regulates the various advisory committees
7 on the Federal side across the country. And, again, I
8 don't know all the ins and outs of this but it's my
9 understanding that that is what a driver in this
10 process.
11
12 CHAIRMAN QUINN: And does that
13
14 MR. KRON: And I'll look to Sandy,
15 Sandy, if you could help us here. Sandy's been around
16 the block many more times than I have and maybe he can
17 help, he's on the Staff Committee for the Park Service.
18
19 Thank you, Mr. Chair.
20
21 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Sandy.
22
23 MR. RABINOWITCH: Good afternoon,
24 again. Sandy Rabinowitch. I would modify what Tom
25 just said slightly. FACA does -- it's important and
26 we've got to follow all the rules of this other Federal
27 law, but I don't believe that FACA says you cannot pay
28 Advisory Committee members. So that's the one
29
30 MR. KRON: Okay, thank you.
31
32 MR. RABINOWITCH: little tweak I
33 would make. But I actually was talking with an OSM
34 Staff just two weeks ago about this, for a different
35 reason, the compensation question that you put on the
36 table, that was Ann Wilkinson, and Ann says that she
37 has checked with the Office of the Secretary of
38 Interior about compensation for FACA committees like
39 this one and there's apparently 113, if I'm remembering
40 the number right, around the country, under the
41 Secretary of Interior, and she said not one, zero, gets
42 any compensation. So I believe it's correct to refer
43 to it as a DOI policy nationwide, that people be
44 volunteers, you know, like what you were saying.
45
46 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Oh, well, certainly.
47
48 MR. RABINOWITCH: Okay. That they not
49 be compensated. I think there are some advisory groups
50 to the Federal government where people are compensated.
88
1 I can't tell you what groups they are, you know, I just
2 don't know that. But within the Department of
3 Interior, that 113 or so, it's all volunteer. That's
4 my understanding of how it works.
5
6 MR. BUCK: Mr. Chair.
7
8 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Go ahead.
9
10 MR. BUCK: I think that Elmer would
11 agree with me when we first started here, we really had
12 -- our compensation was way down, from it was -- it was
13 almost nothing, now, we have something. And I was
14 wondering what happened to make that process to get
15 better compensation, what was done to improve our
16 compensation.
17
18 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Compensation.
19
20 MR. KRON: It's probably the per diem
21 rates have changed.
22
23 MR. RABINOWITCH: Yeah, I was going to
24 say I'm not an expert on that but I assume that per
25 diem rates have gone up, it's really that simple. And,
26 you know, air -- yeah, per diem rates have gone up,
27 they're adjusted every year.
28
29 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Can we just forward
30 Bonanza Fuel's current gas price to you and you'll
31 raise our per diem rate based on that?
32
33 (Laughter)
34
35 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Well, actually where I
36 was going was the selection of members and does that
37 have to go all the way to the Secretary of the
38 Interior? This is an Alaska program and, you know,
39 where's Pat Pourchot and that Kim Elton guy and
40 whatever, why can't they do some of this work?
41
42 MR. RABINOWITCH: Having been part of
43 this for about 15 years or so, what I would tell you is
44 that -- I think Tom just said the application period -
45 or Alex said the application period's still open. The
46 panels to review those have already been selected and
47 they're basically ready to go the day the thing closes,
48 they'll be done with their work in March, so we're in
49 February so they'll -- no, I'm sorry, I think it's
50 April, they're going to be done with their work in
89
1 April, the applicants come to the Staff Committee in
2 May or June, I'm on that Staff Committee group, we
3 usually deal with it within about a two week period and
4 then it goes to the Federal Board usually at a meeting
5 in Anchorage in either June or July, so the Alaska part
6 of the system I think is fairly quick. I mean the
7 Federal Board will be done making all of its
8 recommendations by June or July of this year. It then
9 goes to Washington, D.C. And what I would tell you is
10 things don't move so quickly at that point.
11
12 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Well, I understand
13 that. What's the possibilities of not going to
14 Washington, D.C.?
15
16 MR. RABINOWITCH: My understanding is
17 that the Secretary has retained -- I'm sure we could
18 find this in the regs somewhere, the Secretary has
19 retained the authority to make the choices, to choose
20 you all.
21
22 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Oh, he doesn't choose
23 to delegate it down.
24
25 MR. RABINOWITCH: So conceptually -
26 exactly -- exactly right, Mr. Chairman. Conceptually
27 the kind of thing you would have to suggest would be
28 that that be delegated down to the Federal Board. If
29 you did something like that you'd probably speed it up
30 about six months.
31
32 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Alex.
33
34 MR. NICK: Mr. Chair. Members of the
35 Council. I received one application from one of the
36 members. I'm not going to get into the detail of this
37 application, but I want to stress importance of what
38 you put in this one -- in this document. Like Pete -
39 Peter -- Tom mentioned, I think InterAgency Panel do a
40 very good job reviewing applications, but it depends on
41 what you put in this application. You know, when you
42 put your knowledge in this application, there should be
43 more detail in that. They want to know what you know
44 about the resources out here.
45
46 I think on Page 5 and 6 of this
47 application, when you submit the application or
48 nominate somebody, you need to be kind of maybe
49 specific about what you know or what that person or
50 individual knows about the resources out here.
90
1 If we put maybe one line that probably
2 might be a minus sign, even though, you know -- for
3 example if I was a Regional Advisory Council member I
4 might be reappointed about three terms and if I submit
5 an application assuming that everybody knows me by then
6 and then assuming that, you know, when I put one line
7 of information in this application, they will know who
8 I am, but that may not be the case.
9
10 So I would stress that you put more
11 information on the application of yourself, about
12 yourself or an individual you nominate.
13
14 And I was going to mention Tony,
15 especially Tony, he has concern about membership from
16 Savoonga and the other village, you are welcome to
17 nominate somebody from that village if you know who
18 they are.
19
20 MR. KEYES: There was one person that
21 approached me when I was going to college last year and
22 the individual told me that they had put in an
23 application and they were -- and I said well our
24 meeting is coming up here and she said -- and this
25 person said well I'll probably see you there and I
26 never see that person here.
27
28 CHAIRMAN QUINN: All right. Well,
29 we've driven half the people away and they're all gone
30 now.
31
32 (Laughter)
33
34 CHAIRMAN QUINN: So let's get back to
35 our draft, do we need any more comments or questions or
36 anything on this draft Annual Report.
37
38 MR. NICK: Mr. Chair.
39
40 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Alex.
41
42 MR. NICK: First issue, if I remember
43 correctly comes from concern about fishery research
44 that during the discussion of annual report topics
45 somebody brought up a need for more research
46 participation, Federal participation on research
47 programs out here in the region.
48
49 The second issue comes from, I think -
50 I believe it's from Seetot's region or subregion that
91
1 they were having some problems with the bear population
2 in that area and they want something done.
3
4 Issue number 3 also come from the
5 coastal areas, probably Seetot again, yeah, they talk
6 -- you guys talked about problems with petroleum taste
7 or something.
8
9 MR. ENINGOWUK: Petroleum contaminants.
10
11 MR. NICK: Possible contamination on
12 fish.
13
14 Number 4, streamlining Council
15 nomination appointments.
16
17 MR. BUCK: Mr. Chair. Go ahead.
18
19 MR. NICK: That's all, thank you.
20
21 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Go ahead, Peter.
22
23 MR. BUCK: I was just thinking about
24 the subsistence fisheries resources. Obama made his
25 speech and he said we have one organization for when
26 the fish is in saltwater and we have another
27 organization for when the fish go into the fresh water.
28 And he's trying to streamline the whole situation now.
29 If he wants to streamline us then let the subsistence
30 council take care of the fish resources in the
31 freshwater and also in the saltwater and make the
32 regulations for that. I think that would be a good
33 recommendation.
34
35 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Yeah, we don't have
36 any real Federal regs for saltwater, I guess. The
37 State does though, I guess, the State has some stuff
38 for crabbing, some other species, halibut.
39
40 Go ahead, Tom.
41
42 MR. KRON: Yeah, Mr. Chair. Basically
43 the Federal jurisdiction on the fisheries side is
44 within the external boundaries of the Federal lands,
45 you know, certain Federal lands, Refuges for example,
46 National Parks, some conservation areas, BLM for
47 example, Chugach National Forest. But, again, the
48 saltwater jurisdiction is very limited. Essentially
49 the State has management jurisdiction over, you know,
50 the saltwater fisheries and the critters that are
92
1 there.
2
3 Thank you, Mr. Chair.
4
5 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Tim.
6
7 MR. SMITH: If I recall correctly,
8 didn't the Katie John case decide that the Federal
9 managers, subsistence managers could extend their
10 jurisdiction to things that impacted a subsistence
11 resource?
12
13 MR. KRON: Mr. Chair. What the Katie
14 John case did was essentially to result in the
15 establishment of the Federal jurisdiction over
16 fisheries in freshwater within these conservation
17 system units that I just mentioned. And, again, that
18 was a Copper River issue so essentially within the
19 Copper River district, within the external boundaries
20 of the Parks that are there, the BLM, I don't think
21 there are BLM conservation units, but it was
22 essentially a Park driven issue on Copper River but it
23 became a statewide issue and, again, that culminated in
24 the late 1990s essentially with the development of fish
25 regs on the Federal side. Prior to that it was only
26 wildlife during the 90s for the Federal Program. But
27 with Katie John the Federal system basically had
28 jurisdiction and responsibility for both fish and
29 wildlife. But, again, that jurisdiction has not
30 extended out into most of the saltwaters across the
31 state.
32
33 Again, the coastal areas, the State has
34 jurisdiction on, you know, off shore, you're going to
35 be looking at that issue relative to the North Pacific
36 Council discussion later on in this meeting. But,
37 again, the Federal jurisdiction is within the
38 conservation system unit boundaries.
39
40 Thank you, Mr. Chair.
41
42 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Okay.
43
44 MR. SMITH: I agree 100 percent with
45 Peter, I mean I think that's a real frustrating thing
46 for salmon management, is that, you've got different
47 agencies managing parts of the home range of the salmon
48 stocks and they don't really necessarily take into
49 account the actions of the other, the Board of
50 Fisheries manages salmon stocks in State waters, the
93
1 North Pacific Fisheries Management Council manages
2 salmon stocks or manages impacts on salmon stocks in
3 the -- on the high seas, in the EEZ, and it just
4 doesn't make sense. It's not a workable management
5 system. You need to consider impacts on the population
6 throughout its run.
7
8 I don't know if there's a -- you know,
9 I doubt that we can fix it but I don't think it would
10 hurt to put some message in there that that is a
11 program, it makes it impossible to manage subsistence
12 stocks if they're getting -- taken some place else
13 outside of your jurisdiction.
14
15 MR. BUCK: I think it goes on back -
16 earlier years we kept talking about extraterritorial
17 jurisdiction, and that's -- if we can make regulations
18 if the fish is passing Aleutian Islands then we can
19 make regulations for that are down there because the
20 fish comes up their area, that would be a
21 extraterritorial jurisdiction but over the years this
22 has really gone down the drain. We haven't had any
23 response to it and nobody believes in it anymore so I
24 kind of sit on that.
25
26 MR. SMITH: Yeah.
27
28 MR. SEETOT: Mike.
29
30 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Elmer, go ahead.
31
32 MR. SEETOT: Concerning number 1,
33 increase research needed. Do you need to be specific
34 on the species or the resources that you're going to do
35 research on. Because I kind of mentioned the pike or
36 what I think is a pike increase around the Kuzitrin
37 River area -- Kuzitrin River, the Pilgrim River
38 drainages -- or the Pilgrim River and Kuzitrin River, I
39 know that they are full of pike and that beaver are
40 coming in this way. And, yet, they talk about -- the
41 Alaska Department of Fish and Game talks about red
42 salmon decrease that goes to Salmon Lake, silver
43 salmon, I have no problem with chums because they're
44 going to the Agiapuk River also. The thing that
45 bothers me is that when ADF&G talks about salmon
46 resources, they just kind of think about, you know,
47 that they're being overharvested, not taking into
48 account other factors during the life cycle of the
49 salmon. 2004 there was a big storm, fall storm after
50 the fish spawn, or after the fish spill out their eggs
94
1 around the Agiapuk, Pilgrim River, Kuzitrin River
2 system, even toward Brevig, the spit, what we call the
3 North Spit, a patch of land that's up right to Teller
4 and Brevig, that one was at least three-quarters under
5 water so I was thinking that the water part was very
6 destructive in that way, yet ADF&G was pretty much
7 given other factors because salmon didn't go to the
8 Salmon Lake area for spawning, you know, they were
9 giving other factors that that -- that they probably
10 didn't consider rough storms, predation, pikes. What
11 does beaver dams do to the salmon around that area.
12
13 Fast conclusions but not enough
14 research in that part other than just being there
15 during the spring and summer months to count the fish,
16 you know, that go through there.
17
18 But other factors do come into play.
19 Maybe these are the factors that are not being
20 considered by the fishery biologists because we're just
21 kind of thinking about certain things when we look at
22 salmon depletion.
23
24 Area M.
25
26 You have water temperatures rising.
27
28 You have invasive species coming into
29 an area, yet we do not know what comes into our area
30 because no research is being done.
31
32 So there's a lot of factors that are
33 not being taken into consideration.
34
35 When these species are either
36 threatened or extinct or others, so that's something
37 that we need to pretty much look at very much when
38 resources are not there for the people.
39
40 Thank you.
41
42 MR. BUCK: Mr. Chair.
43
44 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Go ahead.
45
46 MR. BUCK: I'd like to add with his
47 because the resource -- the research needs to be done.
48 I know White Mountain people has always caught the fish
49 in the river. We had some shortages with silvers and
50 stuff like that but not a whole lot, but the Nome
95
1 people have been having a lot of problems all these
2 years. They cant' get their sockeye. Their resources
3 are really depleted and it's affected the Nome area,
4 why didn't it affect White Mountain too. Because I
5 don't know where your fish are coming from but those
6 two rivers should be pretty much the same but they
7 don't know what's happening so the research needs to be
8 done in that area.
9
10 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Tony.
11
12 MR. KEYES: I would like to make a
13 suggestion for the Federal Board to come up with a
14 solution to get an air and water sampling done every
15 year. Not just month -- you know, not just one month
16 out of the whole summer. I would like to see it done,
17 starting from May to fall time is when our fishing
18 resources are up to par. I'd like to come up with that
19 strong suggestion of having water and air monitoring
20 system put into each village to where these -- and have
21 a RAC member help with the monitoring so that they can
22 be able to bring it back with them as information to
23 the rest of the Board members when the year -- the next
24 year meeting comes, that way we'll all have a better
25 understanding of what's really is in the air and in the
26 water and why is our fish not coming to our streams
27 like they used to.
28
29 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Tom, I'm actually
30 going to cut you off here, I'm afraid that I need to
31 keep the meeting moving along.
32
33 I believe that we get a chance each
34 year to recommend studies, fisheries studies, we've
35 done that in the past.
36
37 MR. KRON: Yep.
38
39 CHAIRMAN QUINN: And that chance will
40 come up again next -- each October, I think, so, you
41 know, if you guys have ideas that you want studied you
42 can bring that up at the next meeting and we'll explore
43 that and go forward with some sort of proposal or
44 recommendation.
45
46 So what I guess I need is a motion
47 about this draft Annual Report.
48
49 Alex.
50
96
1 MR. NICK: Mr. Chair. Council members.
2 This is only a draft. You could do whatever you want
3 to do with it. If you want to add or delete portions
4 of it or suggest other issues, you may do so at this
5 time.
6
7 CHAIRMAN QUINN: All right. Well,
8 everything here came from the last meeting, didn't it?
9
10 MR. NICK: (Nods affirmatively)
11
12 CHAIRMAN QUINN: All right. Well,
13 hopefully we stated ourselves well enough. Has
14 anything additional -- well, this is an annual report,
15 when does the date of that annual time end?
16
17 MR. NICK: If you approve this with
18 just minimum changes, the reason why I put the
19 tentative date -- assuming that you would review and
20 approve this tomorrow, on the 16th, but you could put
21 the date you want on it. This is just a tentative
22 date.
23
24 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Well, we do an annual
25 report each year.
26
27 MR. NICK: Yeah -- well
28
29 CHAIRMAN QUINN: So there's, you know,
30 kind of like a starting point and an ending point to
31 that year and our comments should be relevant to that
32 year.
33
34 MR. KRON: It's a calendar year, isn't
35 it?
36
37 CHAIRMAN QUINN: All right, so these
38 are relevant to 2010 and we'll have -- we'll do a new
39 annual report
40
41 MR. NICK: What will happen is after
42 you approve your annual report it will be finalized and
43 the Chair signs it and then submit it to the Federal
44 Board.
45
46 CHAIRMAN QUINN: All right. Well, this
47 is what came out of our last meeting. We're going to
48 have opportunities at the next meeting to do a new
49 annual report, you know, where new concerns can be
50 raised or directions that we want to go. It looks okay
97
1 to me, does anybody see anything that they're aware of
2 in the past year to add or subtract from this report?
3
4 MR. BUCK: I'd like to -- can I make a
5 motion to accept this annual report?
6
7 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Thank you, so moved.
8
9 MR. KEYES: I'll second it.
10
11 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Okay. Seconded by
12 Tony. Any more discussion needed.
13
14 (No comments)
15
16 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Go ahead.
17
18 MR. SEETOT: Question.
19
20 CHAIRMAN QUINN: All right. Question's
21 been called. The motion is to approve this report as
22 written. All those in favor say aye.
23
24 IN UNISON: Aye.
25
26 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Any opposed.
27
28 (No opposing votes)
29
30 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Motion carries.
31
32 MR. SMITH: Mike, I'll abstain again
33 because I wasn't on the Council then.
34
35 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Oh, okay, thank you,
36 Tim. And we are on to our Council Charter Review.
37
38 Alex.
39
40 MR. NICK: Mr. Chair. On Page 57 of
41 your work book you will see your annual report [sic].
42 As you remember in the past when I first got -- well,
43 when I first took over the Seward Peninsula you
44 recommended -- I believe you recommended some changes
45 and I think it had to do with membership, wasn't it -
46 removal of a member. I remember that recommendation.
47 That was -- I believe we
48
49 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Oh, I'm starting to
50 remember this.
98
1 MR. NICK: Yeah, what happened was your
2 recommendation went in but I think there's no changes
3 on this one. This is only for your review, Mr. Chair.
4
5 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Well, on Page 59 it
6 says, removal of members; two consecutive unexcused
7 absences, the Chair may recommend removal. Is that
8 common to all RACs.
9
10 MR. NICK: (Nods affirmatively)
11
12 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Oh, okay.
13
14 MR. KEYES: So instead of a member, a
15 Chairman has the right to
16
17 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Oh, a member may also
18 be removed due to misconduct, we're all members.
19
20 MR. KEYES: Uh-huh.
21
22 CHAIRMAN QUINN: All right. Do you
23 need an action from us?
24
25 MR. NICK: This is just
26
27 CHAIRMAN QUINN: All right, this is
28 just for our review?
29
30 MR. NICK: Mr. Chair. This is for your
31 review and if you see anything that you want to
32 recommend any changes on it you may submit those
33 recommendations at this time.
34
35 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Certainly I'm
36 satisfied with it.
37
38 MR. KEYES: We should pretty much keep
39 it as it is.
40
41 CHAIRMAN QUINN: All right. Any other
42 -- anybody got any comments, things you want changed,
43 added, subtracted.
44
45 (No comments)
46
47 CHAIRMAN QUINN: All right. We're
48 going to be satisfied with that Alex. And we'll move
49 on to agency and organization reports.
50
99
1 Let me pause for a second here. No. 12
2 looks like it's all OSM stuff; is that right, Tom?
3
4 MR. KRON: Mr. Chair. A good chunk of
5 it is. But then, again, you get down to 12, B, C, D,
6 E, F
7
8 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Oh, all right, let me
9 rephrase that. A looks like a whole bunch of OSM
10 stuff.
11
12 MR. KRON: That's correct, Mr. Chair.
13 And I apologize for that. A lot of this comes out of
14 the Subsistence Program Review, which you heard a lot
15 about and the Federal Board is asking for Regional
16 Advisory Council input on a number of these issues.
17
18 CHAIRMAN QUINN: All right. Well,
19 where I'm going with this is to skip A and maybe go to
20 B, C, D and E if the people are here and let those
21 people do their thing and then they can get out of
22 here.
23
24 MS. TAHBONE: We don't want to get out
25 of here.
26
27 CHAIRMAN QUINN: What'd you say Sandy?
28
29 MS. TAHBONE: I said we don't want to
30 get out of here.
31
32 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Well, that doesn't
33 mean you have to, it just means that you can. I see
34 our highly and paid Preserve Superintendent sitting
35 there waiting for us to get to her turn so, you know, I
36 was just trying to speed things up. She could go on to
37 other more important business than sitting at our
38 meeting.
39
40 MS. POMRENKE: What is more important
41 than subsistence?
42
43 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Good come back, I like
44 that.
45
46 (Laughter)
47
48 MS. POMRENKE: I don't mind sitting -
49 I need to listen to the OSM stuff anyway, so even if I
50 do go I'll still be sitting here.
100
1 CHAIRMAN QUINN: All right. Well,
2 where did Tony and
3
4 MR. KEYES: They ran off.
5
6 CHAIRMAN QUINN: They ran off.
7
8 MR. PAPPAS: I'll call them at a break.
9
10 MS. POMRENKE: They probably think that
11 they had a little time to go back to the office.
12
13 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Well, maybe they're
14 organizing and getting prepared for the next time I
15 don't like their data.
16
17 (Laughter)
18
19 CHAIRMAN QUINN: All right. Well, then
20 hearing that we will move on with A. Is that your
21 deal, Tom, go ahead, please.
22
23 Oh, Alex.
24
25 MR. NICK: Thank you, Mr. Chair. On
26 Page 60 of your work book, update on travel procedures.
27
28 Last night during the Council
29 orientation I mentioned a little bit about this. And
30 what I'm going to do is I'm going to read this on
31 record and then I will -- with the help of Tom, I will
32 explain what changes we are to be expecting starting
33 from this meeting.
34
35 Travel arrangements.
36
37 All Federal agencies are required to
38 make all travel arrangements through travel control
39 center, that's Carlson Travel. All the arrangements
40 need to be going through me and then I would forward
41 those travel requests and changes to Carlson Travel.
42
43 All Council member travel arrangements
44 must be made by OSM Staff. If you amend your travel
45 yourself, you will not receive any per diem for travel
46 time after the amended ticket is issued and you may be
47 liable for the cost of air fare. Now, that does not
48 pertain to weather like we're having right now. If you
49 have some problem with travel, you know, due to weather
50 conditions then, you know, you call me and I would
101
1 forward that information on to the travel, OSM travel.
2
3 Therefore, any changes to your travel
4 absolutely must be made through your coordinator. If
5 you are unable to contact your coordinator call Durand
6 Tyler at 907-786-3888 or 1-800-478-1456, and if you
7 can't contact Durand you may call Ann Wilkinson at 907
8 786-3676.
9
10 I'll stop there before I move on to
11 travel vouchers for questions you may have.
12
13 CHAIRMAN QUINN: You wanted to discuss
14 something, Tony.
15
16 MR. KEYES: Yes. I went through this
17 myself, too, when I was at home and then I barely made
18 it out of my village, barely. Weather is a factor
19 regardless if you guys say it ain't, it is. A weather
20 factor. This time of the year our weather is
21 unpredictable. If I wanted -- if -- I was going to
22 come here and if I didn't make it yesterday I would
23 still make all the effort to jump on any first flight
24 that it's coming to Nome so that I can attend this
25 meeting. I don't know why they want a specific airline
26 that we can catch. For instance, what if they have
27 mechanical problem and they can't come out, if that one
28 suggested airline was to be picked for me to fly and if
29 I called in and I say hey I didn't make it in, the back
30 of my hair would raise. So I would, you know, I would
31 clearly make it to where it states that catch the first
32 available flight that you could if you want to attend
33 the meeting, not just making a restriction of having us
34 to go by your abiding rules and say, hey, we picked
35 this airline and you have to use it, what if they don't
36 come; that's the biggest question. And I'm pretty sure
37 Shishmaref is in the same boat as I am too so we have
38 to look at the weather conditions nowadays before
39 anybody puts this on paper.
40
41 So, you know, if I were in that sheet,
42 I would say, catch the first available flight to come
43 to the meeting instead of just being, you know, I have
44 to catch a certain flight.
45
46 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Tom.
47
48 MR. KRON: Yeah, just some follow up.
49 Basically the travel per diem system, the Federal
50 government is going to basically all electronics, it's
102
1 all linked together, and essentially for the Regional
2 Council members, you know, again, basically what we
3 need you to do is to work with Alex. You know the
4 minute there's a problem, call Alex and he'll
5 essentially get the word in to get these adjustments
6 made. The problem we've got is if the adjustments are
7 not made in the electronic system the whole thing just
8 falls apart and it affects per diem at the same time.
9
10 So, again, all we're asking is get a
11 hold of Alex, and if not Alex, Durand or Ann, but
12 basically just let us know what's going on and we'll
13 move heaven and earth to get you to the meetings.
14
15 MR. KEYES: And there's another thing I
16 forgot to mention. Sometimes our telephones and
17 computers will go down for at least a week so to speak,
18 a week and a half, so I'm in the village that you might
19 want to come and join me and you might want to see what
20 electronics is up there.
21
22 CHAIRMAN QUINN: You can also go see
23 the electronic internet systems at the various air
24 services and see how often they fail.
25
26 Tony brings up a good point. My
27 recommendation, you know, is your goal is to get the
28 person to the meeting, okay. And then the secondary
29 goal, I hope, is to get that person here as
30 economically as possible. But the first goal is the
31 priority. Sticking that person with one reservation
32 with one company with one time does not accomplish the
33 priority goal. The person in the village needs the
34 ability to adjust to changes that particular day.
35 Almost all these villages have two flights per day in
36 this region, I'm going to limit my comments to this
37 region, two flights per day with two different
38 entities, aviation businesses. I recommend that you
39 give these people the ability to get on whichever
40 flight they want to get on that day and hopefully
41 they'll make those choices wisely, you know, if the
42 weather's good then they can do whatever you want them
43 to, but if they got to call Alex and they got to call
44 Durand, well, the weather might have closed in and the
45 guy ain't going to be here, you know, and the guy on
46 the ground's got the best ability to look at his
47 weather forecast and say, well, if I don't get on this
48 morning flight I ain't getting there or to say, well, I
49 can't get on -- you know, Bering Air cancelled, but
50 it's supposed to be 10,000 overcast and 10 miles by
103
1 4:00 p.m., so I can get on the evening flight.
2
3 So the overriding goal is to get the
4 guy to the meeting, and economically, I think what I'm
5 suggesting is the better process because now he doesn't
6 have to call Alex and Durand and worry and, okay, go
7 ahead.
8
9 MR. KRON: Mr. Chair. Personally I
10 agree with you 100 percent. The challenge we got is
11 we're working with standards that have been set up for
12 the Federal government across the country. You know
13 the travel arrangements for this meeting have to use
14 that new Federal travel system, your checks come out of
15 Denver, you know, we're trying to explain the situation
16 here in Alaska to people in Washington, D.C., and
17 Denver, and frankly a bunch of those folks, you know,
18 don't understand very well. I will talk to Durand and
19 Ann when I get back to see what flexibility we have,
20 but, again, from what we're hearing is that our options
21 and flexibility are not what they were in the past and
22 we're basically being told we've got to do this way,
23 period, we don't have those options.
24
25 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Well, per diem's a
26 separate issue.
27
28 MR. KRON: It's connected. They are
29 directly connected.
30
31 CHAIRMAN QUINN: The guy's got to get
32 to Nome before he gets per diem. If he don't get to
33 Nome he ain't getting it, right?
34
35 MR. KRON: Mr. Chair. And, again, what
36 I was trying to explain is that essentially the per
37 diem and the travel arrangements are connected
38 direction in this electronic system. And to the extent
39 that we deviate from what's in the electronic system,
40 that's where we get into problems, that's why we need
41 those changes
42
43 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Well, are you telling
44 me that a guy who doesn't get on his plane because of
45 weather might still get a per diem check?
46
47 MR. KRON: No.
48
49 CHAIRMAN QUINN: All right. So it's
50 separated enough that you know whether the guy gets
104
1 here or not and you know whether he's going to get a
2 check or not?
3
4 MR. KRON: Mr. Chair. I distributed
5 checks this morning and those checks went to the people
6 that are here.
7
8 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Well, now, you're
9 making me think that separation doesn't occur and, I
10 mean, you've got control of the checks, why don't you
11 have control of the travel arrangements?
12
13 (Laughter)
14
15 MR. KRON: I have control of the
16 checks, given that they were mailed from Denver to
17 Anchorage and Durand gave them to me yesterday morning
18 and my responsibility is to provide them to the people
19 around the table here from outside of Nome and they had
20 to sign that they received them. That's the control I
21 have.
22
23 CHAIRMAN QUINN: All right.
24
25 MR. KRON: Very limited.
26
27 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Well, I'll bet
28
29 MR. KRON: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
30
31 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Durand can make a
32 phone call to ERA and Bering Air and say, Tony Keyes
33 has authorization to travel to Nome on this date on
34 whichever flight he gets on this date; if he doesn't
35 get on Bering Air then Bering Air ain't going to bill
36 you for the flight. Okay, I'm probably going too far.
37 But you guys can play with this system enough to make
38 it work a little better. I'm not going to accept the
39 answer that, you know -- after you just told me you got
40 checks in your hand, you lost all credibility at that
41 point with your statement, and you guys can play with
42 this thing and make it work.
43
44 MR. BUCK: Mr. Chair.
45
46 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Go ahead, Peter.
47
48 MR. BUCK: First of all I'd like to
49 thank Alex Nick for the coordination that he has been
50 doing for our organization, he followed Barb Armstrong,
105
1 and he's doing a good job and he's always asked me
2 which airline I want to fly with. And the people in
3 this region fly all over this Nome and to the villages
4 and they do have preferences for airlines, they have
5 preferences for who they want to fly, so we have to
6 keep that in mind if you're going to send one of the
7 Council members, ask him which airline he'd rather fly
8 with.
9
10 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Okay, that kind of
11 goes against what I was just saying.
12
13 (Laughter)
14
15 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Okay.
16
17 MR. KRON: I need to work on getting
18 some credibility back here.
19
20 (Laughter)
21
22 CHAIRMAN QUINN: It's an uphill battle.
23
24 (Laughter)
25
26 MR. KRON: But, again, the request -
27 basically the request and what Alex was conveying was
28 that if Anthony, again, cannot make his flight, weather
29 or whatever, basically Durand has the capability to
30 make changes to get on the next flight, get him on the
31 next day, you know, and, again, I understand telephone
32 communications are a problem in this whole mix, but
33 basically what we need is for Durand to make the
34 changes in the electronic system to get Anthony from
35 Wales to Nome. And we're going to do all we can to
36 make that happen, but we've got to be working through
37 that system that they imposed on us for the travel
38 process.
39
40 So that's the request.
41
42 Anyway, when people have various kinds
43 of problems, we just need them to call Alex, you know,
44 or call Durand or Ann and we'll do all we can to make
45 it happen.
46
47 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Well, Alex, I'm going
48 to guess that you have a little better understanding of
49 this problem than people who live in Anchorage and so
50 we'll just hope that you can work with Durand to
106
1 increase the options available to any one member to get
2 here.
3
4 MR. NICK: Mr. Chair. Members of the
5 Council. I do the best I can to make your travel
6 arrangements. And we make the travel arrangements to
7 assure that there is room for you to travel far in
8 advance. Unfortunately sometimes, you know, no matter
9 how we try there's some little problems to the system,
10 and from -- you know sometimes there will be -- like in
11 YK, for example, there would be some problem that the
12 system could not recognize. One time YK RACs Chairman
13 was stuck in the airport because he did not have a
14 ticket and it was not our fault it was the system's
15 fault that made that happen.
16
17 Anyway, what we're talking about here
18 is that everything is probably going to be handled
19 electronically and when the system don't recognize like
20 -- what was it Peter Buck mentioned, that you should
21 have flexibility to switch to another airline. Some of
22 those airlines are not even in the system, computer
23 system, and if they're not in the computer system then
24 I also would have problem working with our travel
25 agency. So it's not easy on our part sometimes and
26 it's very difficult especially when travel changes are
27 occurring in some areas, like this area for example.
28
29 I wanted to mention that.
30
31 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Yeah, I'm not
32 remembering all my aviation stuff either. These guys
33 don't like maybes they want confirmed reservations with
34 money in their bank accounts so what I'm arguing for
35 isn't 100 percent achievable anyway. My credibility's
36 now suffering.
37
38 (Laughter)
39
40 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Tony.
41
42 MR. KEYES: I have another suggestion,
43 if you guys might bear with me, being a RAC member is,
44 number 1 a good thing for your village; number 2 is
45 trying to get your body into Nome so that you can go to
46 a meeting, but if you cannot make it to a meeting, if
47 you cannot jump on the plane, would it still be okay to
48 do it telephonically?
49
50 MR. KRON: Mr. Chairman. Mr. Keyes.
107
1 The answer is yes. And we do that at a number of the
2 meetings when people are just unable to come.
3
4 Thank you, Mr. Chair.
5
6 MR. KEYES: I wanted to bring that up
7 so that everybody else would, you know, will get to
8 know what could happen and what you can do if you are
9 stranded in the village.
10
11 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Okay.
12
13 MR. NICK: Mr. Chair. Can I move on?
14
15 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Yeah, that's exactly
16 what I was going to say, Alex, keep going.
17
18 (Laughter)
19
20 MR. NICK: Okay. The next one is
21 travel vouchers.
22
23 The US Fish and Wildlife Service
24 nationwide is preparing to initiate new software for
25 the Federal financial business management system at the
26 start of fiscal year 2012, beginning from October 1,
27 2011, which will extend time when OSM cannot make
28 purchases or payments. There are two ways that this
29 might affect you directly.
30
31 One, members who make a last minute
32 decision to attend a Council meeting may not receive a
33 travel advance; and, two;
34
35 Travel vouchers for the fall 2011
36 Council meetings will be delayed.
37
38 And what I want to add is it's my
39 understanding that the checks and reimbursements will
40 no longer be mailed directly to Council members
41 addresses, all checks will be sent to OSM and then on
42 to the Council members addresses from now on, beginning
43 from this meeting.
44
45 And what I want to stress at this point
46 is I've mentioned to you before that when you return,
47 you need to let me know what day and what time of the
48 day you return so that I could contact Durand Tyler,
49 who is the travel guy for OSM and he would figure out
50 how much per diem you would get upon your return. If
108
1 you are weatherbound, for example, you know, you may
2 let me know later when you arrive back home. But as
3 soon as you return you need to let me know and also
4 send you travel receipts, like taxi cab receipts to me
5 or to Durand by fax so that those will be attached to
6 your travel voucher for reimbursement.
7
8 Peter, you had a comment.
9
10 MR. MARTIN: Yeah, I was just going to
11 comment doesn't it seem like it doesn't have to be
12 direct to you, that if we have the phone numbers for
13 Durand and Ann, couldn't we just give them a call and
14 say when we made it home?
15
16 MR. NICK: Yeah. Yeah, either me or
17 Durand.
18
19 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Tony.
20
21 MR. KEYES: What you didn't really
22 clarify on getting reimbursements back, your
23 reimbursements will be to and for airport or to your
24 location, your location back to the airport?
25
26 MR. NICK: Yeah, thank you, Tony. I
27 forgot to mention that when you return -- rather when
28 you leave your residence, when you are traveling to
29 these meetings, that's the time you begin your travel
30 until the time you return to your residence rather than
31 on your way home.
32
33 MR. KRON: Just some followup. Again,
34 what we're looking at, this next fall, and basically
35 Alex will be working with Durand, probably in July, in
36 the middle of the summer, to get all the arrangements
37 for the meeting, to figure out where you're going to
38 meet, to arrange for the payment of the meeting place,
39 for the hotel rooms, the airplane tickets, everything
40 will probably have to be done in July. And what we're
41 looking at is right around the change of the fiscal
42 year, you know, and I don't have the exact dates when
43 they're going to freeze up the system, but pretty much
44 most of September and a good share of October, we won't
45 be able to do anything so we've got to get everything
46 done in advance and then when they get the system back
47 up, at that point, then they'll start sending out the
48 checks for the vouchers, you know, the closeout per
49 diem checks for any taxi cabs and the additional per
50 diem amounts.
109
1 So, again, we're just letting you know
2 that this is happening and it's governmentwide, it's
3 not just us in Alaska. It's, you know, the Fish and
4 Wildlife Service and I believe the Federal government
5 nationwide. And it's going to impact us, it's going to
6 happen right during our Council meeting window next
7 fall and we just wanted to let people know in advance.
8
9 So we're going to be planning early for
10 next fall's meeting and then, again, the final payment
11 checks going out to all the members will be later than
12 normal, it probably won't be until the end of October,
13 for example.
14
15 Thank you, Mr. Chair.
16
17 MR. BUCK: Mr. Chair.
18
19 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Go ahead, Peter.
20
21 MR. BUCK: I have another question,
22 maybe you know the answer or not, I don't know. But
23 what is it, one-fourth of our per diem is not delivered
24 to us until we get to the village, I was wondering, why
25 is that?
26
27 MR. NICK: Mr. Chair. Mr. Buck. When
28 you receive your per diem advance, like for this
29 meeting, you receive 75 percent of your per diem,
30 that's the estimated per diem that, you know, assuming
31 that your meeting will go through tomorrow. Now,
32 because we might be done early you might end up -- when
33 you return home earlier you might end up owing
34 government some money so that the money that's supposed
35 to come back to you, which is 25 percent of your per
36 diem that you receive, plus maybe a little more than
37 that might be deducted from your next advance; that's
38 the way it works.
39
40 It's important when you return to let
41 us know what time you make it home so that we'll figure
42 out your reimbursement.
43
44 Does that answer your question, Mr.
45 Buck?
46
47 MR. BUCK: I guess so.
48
49 CHAIRMAN QUINN: All right. I'm going
50 to kind of move things along here. Let's go on to No.
110
1 2 here, the Secretarial Program Review.
2
3 Tom.
4
5 MR. KRON: Mr. Chair. Again, Tom Kron,
6 from OSM. The first item under two is a letter from
7 the Secretary to the Federal Subsistence Board Chair,
8 Tim Towarak, that's on Page 61, it is there for your
9 reference.
10
11 Within that letter is a list of a lot
12 of items that the Secretary wants Tim and the Federal
13 Board to work on. And all the items from B on down to
14 -- actually 2B all the way down through 3 are items
15 that essentially the Board and Tim are working on at
16 the request of the Secretary. And, again, as I
17 mentioned earlier, the Federal Subsistence Board and
18 Tim are looking for your input along with the input
19 from all the other Councils, the other nine Councils on
20 how they should proceed on some of these items.
21
22 The first item, again, you can look at
23 the letter to Chairman Towarak there, but, again, the
24 items under B and on down through 3 are all pieces
25 within that and expansions of that.
26
27 So I'm going to go ahead and move right
28 down to Bi, expansion of the Board to include two new
29 members representing rural Alaskan subsistence users.
30
31 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Oh, okay.
32
33 MR. KRON: And I've got a news release
34 here and a briefing and I'm going to pass them around.
35
36 CHAIRMAN QUINN: He's talking about
37 this here.
38
39 MR. KRON: This was just announced,
40 I'll give these to Alex -- the way the Federal system
41 works, again, the Secretary indicated an interest in
42 doing this, but the way it has to be accomplished is
43 through a Proposed Rule, it's called. And the Proposed
44 Rule was entered into the Federal Register on Friday,
45 last Friday, so just recently, and it's open for
46 comment for 60 days and at all of the Regional Council
47 meetings, and, here, today, we'd like to ask you what
48 you think about doing this. And I'll briefly, while
49 Alex is passing these out, I think many of you, if not
50 all of you have already heard of this, but I'll just
111
1 give you a brief overview of the situation.
2
3 The Assistant to the Secretary of
4 Interior for Alaska, Pat Pourchot, worked with OSM to
5 develop a Proposed Rule to make this change. The
6 Proposed Rule was published on Friday, last Friday,
7 with a 60 day public comment period. The Board will
8 review the public comments at its public meetings on
9 May 3rd, 2011; this coming May 3rd, and provide its
10 recommendations to the Secretaries, the Secretaries of
11 Agriculture and Interior will make the final
12 determination on whether or how this change is to be
13 made. This proposed change would expand the Board to
14 include two new members. Additional changes to the
15 regulations are also proposed to clarify the
16 designation of alternates for Federal agency members
17 and to increase the size of the quorum to take into
18 account the two new members. The Federal Subsistence
19 Board, acting for the Secretaries, is seeking comments
20 on this proposed regulatory change to expand the Board
21 to include two public members representing rural
22 Alaskan subsistence users.
23
24 And, again, this is the opportunity for
25 the Regional Councils and this Regional Council to
26 weigh in with their thoughts as to this proposed
27 expansion of the Federal Subsistence Board. Do you
28 think it's a good idea? Do you think it's a bad idea?
29 Do you have ideas as to how to change it? And I'll
30 leave it at that, but we are definitely seeking -- the
31 Federal Board and Tim are seeking your perspective on
32 this idea.
33
34 Thank you, Mr. Chair.
35
36 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Well, so I see legal
37 writing here to change the Federal regulations so that
38 the voting members of the Board are yada-yada, two
39 public members representing rural Alaska subsistence
40 users to be appointed by the two Secretaries. But
41 other than that you don't have any language as to how
42 to select those two members.
43
44 MR. KRON: Mr. Chair. That is correct.
45 The proposed regulation says nothing about the
46 selection process for the two members. It only adds
47 language and increases the quorum. Essentially that'll
48 be up to the Secretaries.
49
50 Thank you, Mr. Chair.
112
1 CHAIRMAN QUINN: So everybody just gets
2 to throw names in the hat and the Secretaries get to
3 choose?
4
5 MR. KRON: Again, as we discussed
6 earlier, you all were appointed by the Secretary and,
7 again, the Secretary would be appointing these two
8 additional Board members, should this process move
9 forward.
10
11 Thank you, Mr. Chair.
12
13 MR. BUCK: Mr. Chair.
14
15 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Go ahead.
16
17 MR. BUCK: I would like to have the RAC
18 members -- if the Secretary has a list of people that
19 he's thinking about appointing, the RAC members should
20 have that list and the Federal Subsistence Board so
21 that the recommendations are -- they are given a chance
22 to make recommendations on the people nominated.
23
24 Thank you.
25
26 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Yeah, I'm aware of
27 that. You know, all the other members are fairly
28 specifically mentioned as to who they are and how you
29 qualify for the membership on the Board. This one's a
30 little more gray and it looks like a good opportunity
31 for everybody to argue over who to select on there.
32 Everybody's going to want their favorite and there's
33 going to be a lot of unhappy people when it's all said
34 and done, I'm thinking.
35
36 MR. KEYES: Better take your guns.
37
38 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Yeah.
39
40 (Laughter)
41
42 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Anybody else want to
43 say anything -- okay, well, Tom, you had your hand up
44 first.
45
46 MR. KRON: Yeah, Mr. Chair, again, just
47 for clarification. All we're talking about at this
48 point is whether or not they should do it, whether or
49 not they should add two public members to represent
50 rural Alaskans. Again, the Federal Board's going to
113
1 meet in May and review comments from this Council, the
2 other Councils, any public members or agencies that
3 want to weigh in and then they, in turn, will pass on
4 their recommendation to the Secretaries. If this is
5 approved and adopted, at that point then I would assume
6 that the Secretary would initiate a request for names
7 of people that are interested, those names would be
8 considered and then there would be a selection that
9 would occur later on down the road.
10
11 The only thing we've got in front of us
12 right now is just the ability to add two members.
13
14 And, again, the Board is asking
15 specifically for your input and they're going to
16 consider that input at the early May meeting.
17
18 Thank you, Mr. Chair.
19
20 MR. BUCK: Mr. Chair.
21
22 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Just a minute Peter.
23
24 MR. SMITH: Go ahead.
25
26 MR. BUCK: I have another comment on
27 the third paragraph down for the Federal Subsistence
28 Board, and it says two public members representing
29 rural Alaska subsistence users; why couldn't it be two
30 subsistence members representing rural Alaska
31 subsistence users?
32
33 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Well, that's not what
34 they stuck in there so we're stuck with what's written
35 there. Two public members to represent -- I think the
36 assumption is that they will be subsistence users, that
37 was the whole point of the request by AFN, if I
38 remember right -- okay, Tom.
39
40 MR. KRON: Yeah, Mr. Chair. I think
41 this is the exact terminology that was in the letter
42 from the Secretary, that was the way it was worded
43 there, it was carried over into the Proposed Rule.
44 And, you know, it is what it is, but it's direction
45 coming down from the Secretary. The Secretary will
46 ultimately be making the call on this.
47
48 Thank you, Mr. Chair.
49
50 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Tim.
114
1 MR. SMITH: Are you addressing a motion
2 to support this proposal?
3
4 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Yes, I am, and if I
5 remember correctly I got some communication from
6 Barbara and I believe somebody from each RAC will be at
7 this May meeting; is that correct?
8
9 MR. KRON: (Nods affirmatively)
10
11 CHAIRMAN QUINN: So in addition to us
12 doing a motion and whatever, somebody's going to get
13 some money to go to this meeting and participate in
14 this as well.
15
16 MR. SMITH: Okay, well, Tim Smith, and
17 I move that the Council support the recommendation to
18 put two citizen members on the Federal Subsistence
19 Board.
20
21 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Okay, so moved, thank
22 you, Tim.
23
24 MR. KEYES: I will second that.
25
26 CHAIRMAN QUINN: All right, second,
27 Tony. Discussion.
28
29 MR. SMITH: I don't see how it could
30 hurt, you know, it's totally going to be beneficial to
31 have people, additional people who aren't Federal
32 employees speaking for subsistence users.
33
34 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Sure.
35
36 MR. SMITH: It's not going to -- you
37 know, they're not going to have a majority vote or
38 anything, it won't make a profound difference but it
39 certainly can't hurt. I don't see any reason not to
40 support it.
41
42 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Tom, will there be
43 opportunity at the Board meeting to discuss rewording
44 this language? I guess where I'm going is I'd like to
45 see something a little more specific. Right now the
46 way it's worded we could get two members from
47 Ninilchik, we could get two members from Barrow or, you
48 know, I mean like I said the others are specific, you
49 know, we've got a Park Service person so hopefully
50 they're knowledge about Park Service and we have a BLM
115
1 person, well, you know, what are going to end up with
2 here, two guys who live in Ninilchik and haven't paid
3 attention to Seward Peninsula issues for their whole
4 life or two guys that live in Barrow and haven't paid
5 attention to Ninilchik issues their whole lives, you
6 know, and I guess so is there opportunity to play with
7 the wording?
8
9 Okay, Tom.
10
11 MR. KRON: Mr. Chair. Again, this is a
12 Proposed Rule, it's proposed wording. And, I guess,
13 I'm sure, you know, across the 10 Regional Councils and
14 with public there will be discussion about how to make
15 adjustments to this wording. But, again, the concept
16 is to add two additional members of the public. The
17 Secretary was real specific in the words that he chose
18 and those have been carried over here, but I'm sure
19 there will be discussion and opportunity, you know, the
20 intent -- the plan is that each Regional Council Chair
21 would be able to be there at the meeting to participate
22 in that discussion and the decision to explain how
23 their discussion at the Regional Council, you know,
24 leading up to that Regional Council's recommendation.
25 So, you know, I think the opportunity is there.
26
27 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Sandy.
28
29 MR. RABINOWITCH: Thank you for calling
30 on me and letting me jump into the conversation.
31
32 I would stress the point that this is
33 your Council's opportunity to comment on this, and I
34 think you can do that in any number of ways.
35
36 When the May meeting comes about, your
37 Council will have met, your Council will have put on
38 the record whatever you do, and that's all your
39 representative can really speak to because they're
40 there representing the Council. So a for example, and
41 I do not want to put words in your mouth, or anyone's
42 mouth, but if you thought there should be some words
43 added to this Proposed Rule, this is really a time, as
44 a Council, to make that suggestion or maybe multiple
45 suggestions.
46
47 You could also -- so I'm just kind of
48 thinking out loud, but you might also just have several
49 things that you're concerned about, you know, like a
50 bullet list, and your Council could offer; here's a
116
1 list of our concerns. So you can be real specific.
2 You can be general. You can really do anything you
3 want. But as a Council this is your moment on this
4 topic. And so I would just really stress that and
5 encourage you to put on the record, you know, whatever
6 you all think.
7
8 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Tom.
9
10 MR. KRON: Mr. Chair. And, again, just
11 to follow up on what Sandy said, you know, just like
12 when you weigh in on fish proposals or wildlife
13 proposals, you know, the proposed regulatory language,
14 you change, you add sentences, you change words to make
15 them make more sense to you; this is your opportunity
16 to do that and Sandy's exactly right, you know, feel
17 free, if you think this should be changed, this is the
18 place to do it and your Chair will be there to discuss
19 the rationale with the Board.
20
21 Thank you, Mr. Chair.
22
23 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Tony.
24
25 MR. KEYES: Okay. What I came up with
26 after reading that, two public members representing
27 rural Alaskan subsistence users to be appointed by the
28 Secretary -- what I came up with was -- adding two
29 elderly Alaskan subsistence users that could be
30 appointed by the Secretary.
31
32 CHAIRMAN QUINN: You got to define
33 elderly.
34
35 (Laughter)
36
37 MR. KEYES: Elders, such as 65 and
38 older. If we have elders attending they'll pull out a
39 lot of knowledge that we do not see in our papers that
40 we might have missed.
41
42 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Peter.
43
44 MR. MARTIN: Mr. Chairman. State of
45 Alaska, Regional Council have two members, which is
46 appointed by our council, the IRA Council at this time.
47 And I think it's there -- this idea we'll work for
48 subsistence -- Federal Subsistence Advisory Board too.
49
50 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Peter.
117
1 MR. BUCK: The way I see it, the
2 Secretary's appointing two people, subsistence users,
3 and we have nothing to say about it. And I'd like the
4 RAC committees to get together with a list of names,
5 submit it to the Chairman of the Board with those two
6 recommendations, make the recommendation to the -- for
7 the appointment. That's a better process than what I
8 see here.
9
10 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Well, so, you know, if
11 they approve this language, nothing's going to happen
12 until it all goes through the process and the language
13 gets approved
14
15 MR. KRON: Yep.
16
17 CHAIRMAN QUINN: then we'll start
18 picking names.
19
20 MR. KRON: Yep.
21
22 CHAIRMAN QUINN: All right. So for the
23 time being, you know, we're just going to approve the
24 language that goes into the Federal Register for this
25 new change, however, according to Sandy we could be a
26 little more picky or offer our own suggestions at this
27 time.
28
29 Do you have any desire to alter your
30 motion?
31
32 MR. SMITH: Well, I think this would
33 just be discussion related to the motion will support
34 it. But these are the considerations that we might
35 want to see considered by the Secretary. It looks like
36 the Secretary's not going to relinquish his discretion
37 in appointing. He may want to take our wishes into
38 account.
39
40 I think that the criteria used for
41 selecting Regional Advisory Council members would be
42 good to use in these selections too. I think that
43 knowledge of the resources, and knowledge of the uses
44 of the resources should be the most important criteria
45 used in selection.
46
47 I think Peter's suggestion is going to
48 be kind of tough because, you know, there's going to be
49 two people selected for the whole state, chances are we
50 won't know them. I mean how would we -- how would we
118
1 know if they get a couple guys from Southeastern or
2 from, you know, way up the Yukon or something, we won't
3 know anything about them, I don't know how we could we
4 even make a call on that.
5
6 MR. BUCK: Mr. Chair.
7
8 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Yes, Peter.
9
10 MR. BUCK: I also see that the
11 subsistence resources all over Alaska are different and
12 then if you're going to choose two people out of all of
13 Alaska you're going to be missing out on a lot of
14 resources that should be considered, so that kind of -
15 that's what I think.
16
17 CHAIRMAN QUINN: It sounds like a big
18 job because, you know, the Park Service guy, well, or
19 girl, their knowledge is like I said Parks. And the
20 BLM guy's knowledge is BLM. But these two people,
21 what's their knowledge going to be other than the small
22 area of the world, or the state that they've lived in
23 most of their life, yet, they're thrust into a
24 decision-making process that truthfully requires a lot
25 of knowledge. I'm a little disappointed with the
26 wording and I could certainly come up with all kinds of
27 suggestions to change it but in the long-run I'm not
28 sure anything would be accomplished myself.
29
30 I can't imagine being one of those guys
31 and then after a meeting having half the people in the
32 state mad at you.
33
34 (Laughter)
35
36 MR. SMITH: Yeah, I mean I made the
37 motion, I'm not sure that I really feel that strongly
38 that it's a good thing. I think it's going to be
39 impossible to select two people that will really be
40 able to add an awful lot to the Council -- to the
41 process, but I mean I don't see how it would hurt
42 anything.
43
44 CHAIRMAN QUINN: No, it's not going to
45 -- well, I don't know it depends on your perspective.
46
47 All right, so we've got a motion on the
48 floor with a second to support this idea and is there
49 any more discussion.
50
119
1 (No comments)
2
3 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Seeing -- hearing
4 none, if somebody would like to call the question.
5
6 MR. MARTIN: Question.
7
8 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Okay. All those in
9 favor of the motion to support the current language
10 shown before us on this new change say aye.
11
12 IN UNISON: Aye.
13
14 CHAIRMAN QUINN: And any opposed.
15
16 (No opposing votes)
17
18 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Motion carries.
19 You're kind of recording this Tom since Alex went
20 somewhere?
21
22 MR. KRON: Yes, Mr. Chair. Again,
23 Tina's got every word, even our uhs.
24
25 (Laughter)
26
27 MR. KRON: So she's got it all. And,
28 again, I will put together a summary of what I heard,
29 basically you're supporting the current language and I
30 heard in addition to that, in terms of that discussion
31 I heard discussion about the need to possibly consider
32 elderly Alaska subsistence users, knowledge of the
33 subsistence resources, knowledge of subsistence as
34 items as items that need part of the discussion.
35
36 (Council nods affirmatively)
37
38 CHAIRMAN QUINN: I saw a thumb's up. I
39 think I'm gaining some credibility back here.
40
41 Thank you, Mr. Chair.
42
43 (Laughter)
44
45 CHAIRMAN QUINN: You can tell Pete he
46 lost all his credibility by not being here too.
47
48 (Laughter)
49
50 CHAIRMAN QUINN: And I still haven't
120
1 met Polly, I'm upset with that.
2
3 Oh, well, okay, so does that cover both
4 items under B or do you need to go through -- oh
5 there's more than -- oh, heck, what's this next one,
6 ii?
7
8 MR. KRON: Okay, Mr. Chair, and I guess
9 would refer -- if people can kind of just open up to
10 Pages 78 to 80. We realized there was a lot of stuff
11 here and we thought it'd be helpful to kind of just lay
12 it out in the table that people could look at as we go
13 through.
14
15 Again, ii, is just an informational
16 issue for the Councils. We wanted to just let you know
17 about it. There's some things -- you know, as you know
18 the Councils receive deference on the take issue but
19 there are other things out there like customary and
20 traditional use determinations, rural, in-season
21 management issues that have not been granted that
22 deference. And the Secretary has asked the Board to
23 look at those issues very carefully and see to what
24 extent they can also provide deference to the Council
25 on those other three issues. So the Board is looking
26 at that right now, trying to see what they can do to
27 give more deference to the Regional Councils.
28
29 And, again, I just wanted to point that
30 out as another issue that the Board is looking at.
31
32 So that's ii. But, again, the Board is
33 not asking for, you know, any recommendation or just
34 discussion under that issue, but they wanted to let you
35 know.
36
37 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Okay.
38
39 MR. KRON: iii is an action item
40 though, we definitely want to hear your input on -
41 they want to hear your input on iii.
42
43 CHAIRMAN QUINN: All right, let's move
44 on to iii then.
45
46 MR. KRON: Okay. iii. Memorandum of
47 Understanding. Again, there's a briefing on Page 65,
48 the actual Memorandum of Understanding is on Page 67.
49 And, again this is an opportunity the Board,
50 specifically, and Tim would like to have your
121
1 perspective on the MOU. And, again, I'm not sure if -
2 if people haven't read it before, I'm sure everybody's
3 probably heard about it, but it might make some sense
4 if you haven't actually read it, to take a short break
5 and give people a chance to read it before we talk
6 about it, but it's your call.
7
8 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Well, I'm willing to
9 do that but I ain't letting you have a break until
10 3:30, so can we skip iii and move on to iv?
11
12 MR. KRON: We can do that.
13
14 CHAIRMAN QUINN: And do you want input
15 from Councils on that?
16
17 MR. KRON: Well, we want -- the Board
18 is seeking -- it's not me -- the Board is seeking your
19 input on iii and also on iv; I think iv might be a
20 little bit quicker. Do you want me to talk about iv?
21
22 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Yeah, talk about iv,
23 and we'll try and quick comment on that.
24
25 MR. KRON: Okay, very quickly, and
26 we're on to iv, customary and traditional use
27 determinations. And, again, this is an opportunity for
28 the Regional Advisory Councils to weigh in on, at a
29 very general level, before the Federal Subsistence
30 Board looks at regulatory changes. It, first, wants to
31 assess if regulatory changes are even needed. To date
32 more than 300 C&T determinations have been done. The
33 decision on C&T has been affirmed by the courts when
34 they have been challenged. At this point the Federal
35 Subsistence Board is interested in what the Regional
36 Advisory Councils think about the existing process for
37 C&Ts and as so, is asking two very general questions.
38
39 Is the current process working for you?
40
41 If not, how or what would you change?
42
43 And, again, I've been directed to take
44 very good notes of your discussion and report. And,
45 again, if you've got specific comments or concerns
46 about the customary and traditional use determination
47 process, we would very much like to hear them.
48
49 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Okay, does anybody
50 have comments on C&T use determinations? I know we've
122
1 gone over some of this in the past, Helen Armstrong's
2 reviewed it.
3
4 MR. KRON: Yep.
5
6 CHAIRMAN QUINN: But some members
7 weren't here for that.
8
9 Did you want to say something?
10
11 MR. SMITH: Yeah. I've been involved
12 in C&T findings for -- on the State level, I haven't
13 been with the Federal level for muskoxen and for chum
14 salmon. And my concern with the process is it's way
15 too arbitrary. I'd like to see better guidelines for
16 establishing C&T findings. And I realize how difficult
17 that would be to produce. But I'm just real unha -
18 I'm doubtful with the way things are done. We went
19 through two C&T findings for muskoxen, the first time
20 the Board found no C&T, and the second time they found
21 for C&T with the same data. You know, I presented
22 information at both of those hearings, gave them the
23 same historical information in both cases and they did
24 a 180 degrees opposite. So, to me, it's way too
25 arbitrary, depends on who's on the Board, and so there
26 needs to be a better way to do it, I think, a much more
27 objective way to do it.
28
29 MR. KRON: Mr. Chairman. What
30
31 REPORTER: Wait. Tom. Tom.
32
33 MR. KRON: Alex is
34
35 CHAIRMAN QUINN: You turned your mic
36 off, turn it on.
37
38 MR. KRON: Okay. Mr. Chair. What Alex
39 is passing out is a list of the eight factors that is
40 used in the Federal Subsistence Program, and these are
41 the things that Helen Armstrong was referencing in the
42 C&T analysis that she has done for this Council. And
43 it basically goes through, you know, the process, that
44 you see any time there's a proposal to change or to add
45 a C&T determination,this is the framework that is used
46 on the Federal side.
47
48 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Go ahead.
49
50 MR. SMITH: This looks almost exactly
123
1 the same as the one used by the State but it still is
2 pretty arbitrary.
3
4 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Well, we -- you know
5 it's a process that's -- well, how do I say it, it's a
6 dynamic process, it doesn't end, and things change. I
7 believe, just in my, whatever number of years of
8 participation, we've actually changed some C&T
9 determinations, you know, it's more of a regional thing
10 at the Federal level, or location, than it is at the
11 State -- well, I don't know, but anyway, you know, and
12 we certainly have opportunities to change them again in
13 the future if we see or if anyone sees that use
14 patterns have changed. I certainly support that. I
15 don't want it to be a static thing where, because you
16 had it in the past you have it forever and because you
17 didn't have it in the past you're never going to have
18 it.
19
20 So the Federal system seems to allow a
21 fair amount of opportunity for change as things change.
22
23 Did you want to say something, Tom?
24
25 MR. KRON: No, thanks.
26
27 CHAIRMAN QUINN: I've been satisfied
28 with the process.
29
30 MR. BUCK: Mr. Chair.
31
32 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Go ahead, Peter.
33
34 MR. BUCK: The one customary and
35 traditional use that we didn't have in this area was
36 the muskox until -- until it was introduced and then
37 now with this process it's been established where we do
38 have C&T for muskox now since we've had it for what,
39 not very long now for the muskox, but we never did have
40 the C&T for muskox before.
41
42 But I think the C&T was still there.
43 The families in the region shared with each other and
44 they took game and they took a certain -- it didn't
45 matter what kind of game it is, they divide it up
46 between each other so they had their own C&T. And C&T,
47 even though we get new species, the C&T will still be
48 there.
49
50 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Does that satisfy your
124
1 need for Council input.
2
3 MR. KRON: If you're satisfied, I'm
4 satisfied Mr. Chair.
5
6 CHAIRMAN QUINN: All right. Well, I
7 can certainly see Tim's comments being -- I'd say a
8 little more valid in areas where things change faster,
9 there's more people involved, there's also
10 determinations of rural and non-rural involved and
11 having more specific guidelines could be of assistance.
12 From my experience it's worked fairly satisfactory out
13 here. We've got plenty of information that people in
14 -- we got fewer people involved altogether over a large
15 -- pretty large area.
16
17 MR. SMITH: My objection was mostly on
18 the arbitrary nature of it, you know, I mean it's -
19 you look at the information but there's really no ruler
20 to use to decide whether it -- you know, like I said
21 with muskoxen, the first time it was no finding of C&T
22 and the second time it was a finding -- a positive
23 finding of C&T with the same information, the same
24 historical information. It seems like the process
25 should be a little more objective than that, but I
26 don't really have a good way of doing that either. I
27 know it's really difficult to decide, you know,
28 particularly with an introduced species like muskoxen.
29
30 CHAIRMAN QUINN: All right. So where's
31 my watch, well, it's almost 3:30, so we'll take our
32 break, about 10 minutes, and come back -- oh, so
33 everybody's supposed to, if you can read the Memorandum
34 of Understanding and then we'll give you some comment
35 on that.
36
37 (Off record)
38
39 (On record)
40
41 CHAIRMAN QUINN: I'm going to call this
42 back to order. So we're going to do the Memorandum of
43 Understanding. Are you going to give us any more, I
44 guess.
45
46 MR. KRON: Mr. Chair. Just real
47 briefly. And I'll touch on some of the key points
48 there in the briefing that's on Page 65.
49
50 The Federal Subsistence Board is
125
1 seeking input from all 10 Regional Councils on the MOU
2 during this current cycle, and, again, you guys are
3 first in the 10 cycle meeting this winter.
4
5 When the Federal Subsistence Program
6 expanded into subsistence fishery management in 1999,
7 both Federal and State entities believed that the MOU
8 would help with the coordination of subsistence
9 management between Federal and State programs. As a
10 result an MOA, a Memorandum of Agreement was negotiated
11 between the State and Federal team that included
12 Regional Advisory Council representatives. It was
13 initiated by all parties in April 2000.
14
15 In 2008 the MOU, which is based on the
16 MOA was developed by a team of State and Federal
17 officials over a period of about one year and was
18 signed in 2008. FACA, or the Federal Advisory
19 Committee Act concerns precluded RAC Members from being
20 on the development team for that process, based on the
21 Solicitor's office recommendations.
22
23 The purpose of the MOU is to provide a
24 foundation and direction for coordinated inter-agency
25 fish and wildlife management for subsistence uses on
26 Federal lands, while allowing Federal and State
27 agencies to continue to act in accordance with their
28 representative statute authorities.
29
30 And down to key points.
31
32 The MOU helps to address communication
33 and coordination between State and Federal governments.
34
35 Several sections in Title VIII
36 expressly require the Secretaries to communicate and
37 coordinate and consult with the State representatives.
38
39 The MOU was carefully reviewed by the
40 Federal team and legal counsel to ensure that the
41 provisions of Federal law and the Board's obligations
42 to rural residents as defined in Title VIII of ANILCA
43 continue to be maintained.
44
45 The body of the MOU contains several
46 references to State law and has prompted some observers
47 to express concern that the signing -- that in signing
48 the MOU the Board undermined its obligations to Title
49 VIII to provide for a subsistence priority for rural
50 Alaskans on Federal land.
126
1 However, the Board's authority, charge
2 and obligations to rural residents came only from Title
3 VIII, and any other applicable Federal statutes, the
4 MOU will not, cannot and does not change that.
5
6 And, again, the Federal Subsistence
7 Board is looking for your input at this meeting. And
8 the Federal Subsistence Board review period is open
9 between now and May 1st, and, again, they'll be looking
10 at your comments and deciding, you know, where to go
11 from here.
12
13 Thank you, Mr. Chair.
14
15 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Okay, thank you, Tom.
16 And hopefully everybody's just as uninformed on this as
17 I am.
18
19 (Laughter)
20
21 CHAIRMAN QUINN: I don't know. Tom
22 there used to be a seat at the table for a -- a non
23 voting seat at the table of the Subsistence Board by a
24 State guy, I believe that's no longer the case; is that
25 right?
26
27 MR. KRON: Mr. Chair. A number of
28 years ago the State of Alaska specifically asked for a
29 non-voting seat at the Federal Subsistence Board table.
30 Based on a document from 1992 it's my understanding
31 that at that point there was agreement that they should
32 have a seat, but, again, they didn't ask for one until,
33 I think it was about five years ago, they were granted
34 a seat at the table, essentially a -- basically the
35 Chair that they've occupied has moved around a little
36 bit. The way things are set up and then Mr. Buck saw
37 it and Tim saw it there in Anchorage, essentially
38 you've got the Federal Board essentially where your
39 table is, Regional Councils on either side, and the
40 State essentially was to my left right over here on
41 this side, like where Tina's sitting, that's the way
42 things are arranged, but essentially it's the -- the
43 State status in that process is, you know, essentially
44 they're a non-voting member but they can provide input.
45 But once the Board gets into deliberations, Regional
46 Council Chairs or the State, you know, can ask to be
47 recognized, but it's up to the Board to make that call,
48 just like it's up to you to make the call whether or
49 not to recognize me when I put my hand up here at this
50 meeting.
127
1 Mr. Chair, thank you.
2
3 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Well, so the seat
4 still exists and somebody sits in it during Board
5 meetings?
6
7 MR. KRON: That is correct. And I
8 think we've got some State representatives here that
9 have sat in one of those seats there and I don't know
10 if they have anything else to add.
11
12 MR. PAPPAS: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
13 George Pappas, Fish and Game.
14
15 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Okay.
16
17 MR. PAPPAS: Normally it's the
18 Commissioner or the Commissioner's designee. This last
19 meeting we had Director Charlie Swanton, who is the
20 director of the Sportfish Division because the
21 Commissioner position, I believe, was vacant at the
22 time.
23
24 MR. BUCK: Mr. Chair.
25
26 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Go ahead, Peter.
27
28 MR. BUCK: When I was down at that
29 meeting I spoke with quite a few of the RAC head Chairs
30 and they -- they were talking about ANILCA and
31 according to them the State doesn't completely comply
32 with ANILCA with their policies, so that was my
33 understanding.
34
35 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Okay. Tim.
36
37 MR. SMITH: I notice in the MOU in
38 4(12) it does seem to accommodate what we were talking
39 about earlier, about using the moose harvest report to
40 gather information on subsistence users on Federal
41 lands. That seems like that could be done under this
42 MOU.
43
44 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Well, I don't know,
45 you're going to have to deal with a bunch of State guys
46 to get a little checkbox on a harvest ticket, despite
47 what the Memorandum -- I guess that's a good point.
48
49 MR. SMITH: They've already agreed to
50 it.
128
1 CHAIRMAN QUINN: I mean if we're going
2 to have an MOU, and we got an MOU and we should all
3 work together, but that's just our view.
4
5 Okay, George.
6
7 MR. PAPPAS: Mr. Chair. Good comment.
8 I just spoke to some folks here during the lunch period
9 and the permit, the actual statewide permitting system
10 is going to be evaluated this spring for potential
11 redesign of the permits, and a recommendation from this
12 RAC could be sent through OSM to ADF&G to work
13 something out or some ideas or recommendations; this
14 would be a good format to voice your opinion and direct
15 it to the State.
16
17 Thank you, Mr. Chair.
18
19 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Would you like to make
20 a motion.
21
22 MR. SMITH: I move that we request that
23 when the State harvest reports are redesigned that they
24 look into putting a checkbox and a line for identifying
25 that the animal was taken under Federal hunting
26 regulations -- subsistence hunting regulations.
27
28 MR. ENINGOWUK: Second the motion.
29
30 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Okay, second. We
31 already discussed this at length, does anybody need to
32 add anything.
33
34
35 (No comments)
36
37 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Hearing none
38
39 MR. SEETOT: Question.
40
41 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Question called. All
42 those in favor of the motion say aye.
43
44 IN UNISON: Aye.
45
46 CHAIRMAN QUINN: And all those opposed.
47
48 (No opposing votes)
49
50 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Okay, so, Tom, we'd
129
1 like to see a recommendation from us that review of the
2 permits involve possible checkboxes for Federal hunts
3 since we're in effect using them in rare situations for
4 such.
5
6 Okay, so you need action from us at
7 some level. Do you want an official motion and all
8 that or can we just kind of generally say it looks
9 okay?
10
11 MR. KRON: Mr. Chair. It's up to you.
12 I guess we're asking for your perspective and specific
13 comments, if you want to see changes made.
14
15 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Okay. Does anybody
16 have any specific comments to the Memorandum of
17 Understanding? It is pretty important, I'll say, that
18 this thing is in existence. While there's two separate
19 entities, we don't hunt on two separate lands,
20 theoretically, so everybody's got to come together and
21 make things as easy both for the hunter and the manager
22 as possible.
23
24
25 (No comments)
26
27 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Hearing nothing else,
28 we're aware of the MOA -- MOU and we're satisfied with
29 what we've seen so far I'll say.
30
31 And, of course, like all this stuff it
32 is somewhat dynamic and in the future if we want to
33 make comments we can do so, right?
34
35 MR. KRON: Yes, Mr. Chair.
36
37 CHAIRMAN QUINN: All right. Are we on
38 five now, rural determinations, and that's just
39 informational?
40
41 MR. KRON: Yes. Another informational
42 item. The Federal Subsistence Board is going to have a
43 work session on April 6th to discuss rural. Again,
44 we've just completed another decennial census. And the
45 RAC Chairs are invited to this meeting on April 6th.
46 They've decided that it's going to be so long and
47 complex that they need to basically do it face to face,
48 so they're not going to be teleconferencing people if
49 they're unable to make it. And the Federal Subsistence
50 Board is not preparing to make any decisions with
130
1 regard to the process or regulatory changes until after
2 it's grounded in rural. You know we've got a lot of
3 new Federal Subsistence Board members and people just
4 want to find out about the process and how things work
5 and what we have right now.
6
7 But, again, just for your information
8 and, again, the Board Chairs will be invited to a
9 meeting on April 6th.
10
11 Thank you, Mr. Chair.
12
13 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Okay, thank you, Tom.
14 And then you can move on to No. 6.
15
16 MR. KRON: Okay. Mr. Chair. Executive
17 session policy. And, again, another informational
18 item, just want to let people know what's happened.
19 And this was, again, something that came out of the
20 Secretary of Interior's Review.
21
22 The Federal Subsistence Board is
23 committed to an open and transparent public process.
24 Towards this end an executive session summary of the
25 Board's January 5th, 2011 meeting is included in your
26 Regional Council books on Page 76. They basically were
27 working on a bunch of these same issues we've been
28 talking about at the direction of the Secretary and
29 trying to figure out how to go on those issues but,
30 again, they've committed to do summaries of their
31 meetings when they meet in executive session. And,
32 again, this is a summary of that meeting, and in the
33 future they intend to do a summary and provide it to
34 the Regional Councils so that people know what's
35 happening.
36
37 Thank you, Mr. Chair.
38
39 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Well, okay, I'm a
40 little confused because locally when we have executive
41 sessions we don't get to find out squat about what
42 happens. But you have a nice little list of apparently
43 the stuff that was discussed. That makes me think it
44 wasn't really an executive session because executive
45 sessions are supposed to be secret or something. Am I
46 -- is my understanding of executive sessions too
47 narrow?
48
49 Tim.
50
131
1 MR. SMITH: I think you're talking
2 about executive sessions conducted by local entities
3 under the Alaska Public Meetings Act.
4
5 CHAIRMAN QUINN: I guess so.
6
7 MR. SMITH: Yeah, I think what the
8 situation is, is that, this is one of my pet-peeves, I
9 think the situation is that the local organizations
10 don't understand the requirements of the Public
11 Meetings Act and they abuse executive sessions quite a
12 bit.
13
14 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Oh, I see, okay.
15
16 MR. SMITH: And, you know, executive
17 sessions, it says right in the Act, that executive
18 sessions are not privy -- are not a way to hide things
19 from the public and it lays out very clear guidelines
20 for conducting executive sessions and most
21 organizations around here violate those routinely.
22
23 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Oh.
24
25 MR. SMITH: You're not supposed to be
26 able to do things in secret. There are very, very few
27 situations that authorize an executive session under
28 the Alaska law. And we were talking about that last
29 night when Alex was giving us training, is, are there
30 any circumstances where a Regional Advisory Council can
31 use an executive session.
32
33 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Oh, good question, and
34 what was the end result of that discussion?
35
36 (Laughter)
37
38 MR. SMITH: I refer to Alex.
39
40 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Can I kick everybody
41 out of the room and we'll let
42
43 (Laughter)
44
45 MR. NICK: Mr. Chair. Members of the
46 Council. Last night we talked about there are some
47 certain times that the RAC might consider executive
48 session and one of the examples that we used last night
49 was if there's concern about a RAC member or a Staff,
50 and there would be other Staff invited and maybe others
132
1 who are not with the agency or whatever not invited to
2 participate to answer some questions that a RAC may
3 have. That's what we talked about last night a little
4 bit.
5
6 Mr. Chair.
7
8 CHAIRMAN QUINN: All right, thanks.
9 Well, good, I'm glad to see that it looks like the
10 Subsistence Board is doing things on the up and up. So
11 next one.
12
13 MR. NICK: Mr. Chair. Before you move
14 on, I wanted to explain something that the RAC members
15 should understand, hopefully, clearly.
16
17 The reason why sometime that might
18 become necessary is because RAC and the Staff are not
19 allowed to go on line and talk about privacy issues,
20 and that's probably one consideration the RAC may have
21 in the future to go into executive session to talk
22 about some privacy issues. Because OSM protects your
23 -- the agency protects your privacy to a certain point
24 so, you know, we keep it that way too, up to now.
25
26 CHAIRMAN QUINN: All right. Number
27 vii.
28
29 MR. KRON: Mr. Chair. Tribal
30 consultation. I've got an outline of the issue and
31 process that I need to go through and would refer you
32 to the letter from Chairman Towarak on Page 74 that all
33 of the Council members should have gotten.
34
35 Title VIII of the Alaska National
36 Interest Lands Conservation Act, or ANILCA, provides a
37 foundational role for the 10 Regional Advisory Councils
38 in the development of regulations guiding the taking of
39 fish and wildlife on Federal public lands in Alaska.
40
41 Deference to the Councils ensures that
42 rural residents have a meaningful role in the
43 management of fish and wildlife and subsistence uses as
44 envisioned by Congress. To date because of the
45 foundational role of the Councils in the Federal
46 Program as well as the requirements by statutes that
47 the Board defer to the Council recommendations, the
48 Federal Subsistence Board has not explicitly consulted
49 with tribes during the development of regulations.
50
133
1 The Administration, by Presidential
2 Order, has underscored the importance of tribal
3 consultation across government. Consistent with the
4 Secretaries of Interior and Agriculture's renewed
5 emphasis on respectful relationships with tribes, the
6 Federal Subsistence Board would like to enhance our
7 government-to-government consultation with tribes. The
8 Federal Subsistence Board is, thus, initiating steps to
9 formally incorporate tribal consultation into the
10 Federal Subsistence Management Program, while
11 maintaining the established role of the Regional
12 Advisory Councils.
13
14 Toward this end, tribes were invited to
15 participate in the January 18th through 21st, 2011
16 Federal Subsistence Board meeting. Invitations were
17 sent to all Federally-recognized tribes in Alaska as
18 well as ANCSA corporations. Invitations were two-fold.
19
20 Tribes were invited to provide comments
21 on fisheries proposals;
22
23 And they were also invited to a meeting
24 on the 21st of January to discuss development of tribal
25 consultation protocols for the overall Federal
26 Subsistence Management Program.
27
28 Each Regional Advisory Council member
29 was also sent a letter signed by the Federal
30 Subsistence Board Chair explaining the Board's intended
31 process and to assure that the Councils -- and to
32 assure the Councils of their continued vital role in
33 the program.
34
35 And, again, a copy of the letter is on
36 Page 74 of your book.
37
38 While the meeting on the 21st was an
39 initial discussion session, the Board's goal is to work
40 with tribes to develop a tribal consultation policy for
41 the Federal Subsistence Management Program. This will
42 need to be consistent with the Department's policies.
43 The meeting on the 21st was generally a listening
44 session. OSM is preparing a summary of the main points
45 raised and that will be made widely available.
46 Development of specific consultation mechanisms will
47 require further meetings between the Federal
48 Subsistence Board and tribes.
49
50 Main themes expressed at the first
134
1 session included:
2
3 Tribal traditions in the use of fish
4 and wildlife predate Western management systems.
5 Knowledge is passed down through the generations. We
6 need to listen to traditional knowledge.
7
8 The Regional Advisory Councils, with
9 all due respect, are not tribes. There is a necessity
10 to consult meaningful, directfully with tribes.
11
12 The tribes need to be informed of
13 program developments early on. The tribes need to
14 partners in the process. Tribal participation in the
15 Council process needs to be made explicit.
16
17 The current meeting window provides an
18 opportunity for Councils to receive this update on
19 tribal consultation and to provide initial perspectives
20 and feedback.
21
22 And some key points.
23
24 In making this regulatory process, the
25 Federal Board must follow the recommendations of the
26 Regional Advisory Council process unless they are not
27 supported by substantial evidence, violate recognized
28 principles of fish and wildlife conservation or would
29 be detrimental to the satisfaction of subsistence
30 needs. These three aspects are specifically identified
31 in Section .805(c) of ANILCA.
32
33 The Alaska National Interests Land
34 Conservation Act does not provide rights to tribes for
35 the subsistence taking of wildlife, fish and shellfish,
36 however, because tribal members are affected by
37 subsistence fishing, hunting and trapping regulations,
38 the Secretaries, through the Board, will provide
39 Federally-recognized tribes and Alaska Native
40 Corporations an opportunity to consult.
41
42 Thank you, Mr. Chair.
43
44 MR. BUCK: Mr. Chair.
45
46 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Go ahead, Peter.
47
48 MR. BUCK: During that last day of the
49 meeting in Fairbanks [sic], tribal consultation was in
50 process all day long and they should have had
135
1 documentation of what was said during that tribal
2 consultation. I haven't yet seen it, and I'd like to
3 know if they're going to be made available.
4
5 MR. KRON: Mr. Chair. Mr. Buck. Yes,
6 the summary isn't finished yet. Again, Tina, was there
7 with her son transcribing the meeting, the minutes from
8 the meeting will be available word for word, and they
9 are putting together a summary, but my understanding is
10 that it is not complete yet, but, again, it will be
11 made available.
12
13 Thank you, Mr. Chair.
14
15 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Do you need anything
16 from us?
17
18 MR. KRON: It's up to you if you would
19 like to make additional comments, you're more than
20 welcome to do so.
21
22 Thank you, Mr. Chair.
23
24 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Does anybody want to
25 add anything? Let's see so that meeting was in January
26 -- I thought you went to the meeting in January -- you
27 ended up going?
28
29 MR. BUCK: Yeah.
30
31 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Oh, okay, and that was
32 in Anchorage or Fairbanks?
33
34 MR. BUCK: Anchorage.
35
36 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Oh, okay.
37
38 MR. KEYES: I thought someone said you
39 went to it.
40
41 CHAIRMAN QUINN: I had the option to
42 go, I declined because I couldn't get away from work
43 and so I think you had the next option, didn't you?
44
45 MR. ENINGOWUK: No, chain of command,
46 it went to Peter.
47
48 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Oh.
49
50 MR. ENINGOWUK: They called me, I
136
1 called
2
3 (Laughter)
4
5 CHAIRMAN QUINN: All right. Well, if
6 that's -- well, we don't need to say anything else,
7 we'll have chances to work on this in the future, I
8 suppose.
9
10 Other.
11
12 MR. KRON: Mr. Chair. I'm not aware of
13 any other. We could move on to Migratory Birds under
14 the Fish and Wildlife Service if you'd like, Page 94.
15
16 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Oh, well, we've got
17 three and four, summary of January 5th Board Executive
18 Summary -- you already did that?
19
20 MR. KRON: Yes.
21
22 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Okay. Salmon bycatch
23 in the groundfish fisheries, I know that -- oh, you
24 wanted something on that but you wanted tonight to
25 prepare it.
26
27 MR. SMITH: Yes. But I guess we
28 can
29
30 REPORTER: Tim. Tim.
31
32 MR. SMITH: it would be fine to
33 talk to
34
35 REPORTER: Tim, your mic, please.
36
37 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Turn your mic on.
38
39 REPORTER: Thanks.
40
41 MR. SMITH: I don't have any objection
42 to going through these written briefings tonight, but
43 what I'd like to ask the Council to do is tomorrow is
44 write a letter expressing the Council's wishes for the
45 North Pacific Fisheries Management Council action on
46 limiting chum salmon bycatch in the trawl fisheries as
47 I understand was done with the king salmon bycatch
48 fisheries two years ago.
49
50 But it's up to you, Mr. Chairman, if
137
1 you want to do the written briefings now or we can save
2 it for tomorrow.
3
4 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Well, the slight
5 possibility of finishing this meeting today is looming
6 on the horizon, so I want to ask my fellow members
7 here, would you like to see this meeting concluded
8 today or
9
10 MR. KEYES: I would like to go over
11 Tim's
12
13 CHAIRMAN QUINN: we can -- if we
14 work tomorrow we can put a little more detail into a
15 couple items.
16
17 MR. KEYES: Yes.
18
19 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Okay.
20
21 MR. KEYES: Yes, tomorrow.
22
23 CHAIRMAN QUINN: You want tomorrow.
24
25 (Council nods affirmatively)
26
27 CHAIRMAN QUINN: All right. Then we
28 will save -- you will have your chance to come up with
29 something tonight in writing that we can all look at
30 and work on tomorrow, so, now, yes, we can move on to
31 B, Migratory Birds Co-Management, Tom, go ahead.
32
33 MR. KRON: Mr. Chair. If you wanted I
34 could quickly go through the written briefings today on
35 the chum and chinook bycatch issue just for
36
37 CHAIRMAN QUINN: No.
38
39 MR. KRON: No.
40
41 CHAIRMAN QUINN: No.
42
43 MR. KRON: Okay.
44
45 MR. KEYES: We'll do that tomorrow.
46
47 MR. SMITH: We'll do that tomorrow.
48
49 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Okay, we'll do that
50 tomorrow.
138
1 MR. KEYES: No shortcuts.
2
3 MR. KRON: Okay, give me a minute.
4
5 (Laughter)
6
7 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Well, potentially some
8 people might not have to be here tomorrow depending on
9 what we get done now.
10
11 MR. KRON: Right.
12
13 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Okay, so, Mr.
14 Chairman, the duck stamp issue.
15
16 The Migratory Bird Program within the
17 US Fish and Wildlife Service has provided several
18 informational items. They can be found in the RAC
19 books starting on Page 94. And, again, the Migratory
20 Bird Co-Management Council list is on Page 95.
21
22 The briefing document clearly outlines
23 the duck stamps, duck stamps are required, and that has
24 not changed. Some groups have raised an issue with
25 that requirement but the regulation has not changed.
26
27 And that's all I've got to say on that.
28
29 Thank you, Mr. Chair.
30
31 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Any comments.
32
33 MR. BUCK: Does Sandy have a comment on
34 it.
35
36 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Sandy.
37
38 MS. TAHBONE: Sandy Tahbone with
39 Kawerak. I'm also the representative for Kawerak who
40 is a partner to the Alaska Migratory Bird Co-Management
41 Council.
42
43 And the latest on that was last
44 Congress, both Senator Murkowski and Begich did submit
45 a bill but unfortunately with the Horizon issue, there
46 was no action, or it didn't move at all and we have yet
47 to hear what they're going to be submitting this
48 session so we will keep you informed, but it continues
49 to be a hardship on many of our people.
50
139
1 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Be more specific,
2 what's the hardship, or what did the bill said?
3
4 MS. TAHBONE: Well, what the bill was
5 trying to do was trying to provide for our harvesters
6 not to have to purchase a duck stamp, was basically the
7 intent.
8
9 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Okay.
10
11 MR. KEYES: Where it says all hunters
12 age 16 and over must possess -- must have in possession
13 a Federal duck stamp; why does it include -- why it
14 doesn't say anything about 65 and older, we should
15 leave those elders alone and not even let them even
16 carry a duck stamp because they've been on this world
17 longer than we have and they got more knowledge than
18 the 16 year olds.
19
20 MS. TAHBONE: Mr. Chairman.
21
22 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Sandy, go ahead.
23
24 MS. TAHBONE: Tony, you know,
25 unfortunately the Alaska Migratory Bird Co-Management
26 Council does not -- we don't set these regulations. It
27 has to take an Act of Congress to change it. If it was
28 up to the Co-Management Council, we would have dealt
29 with this years ago. So this is an issue, both at the
30 State -- you know there's requirements also for State
31 hunting -- hunting under the State sporthunt
32 regulations in the falltime. We deal -- right now we
33 deal with just the spring harvest regulations. We just
34 propose them to the Service Regulation Committee, we
35 don't set the regulations, we just propose them within
36 the frameworks of our Co-Management body.
37
38 So we, you know, like I said it's going
39 to take an Act of Congress to take care of this.
40
41 MR. KEYES: How would we be able to do
42 away with duck stamps because first of all there's
43 places that you can purchase them and there's places
44 that you can't get them.
45
46 I've heard people having troubles
47 trying to find duck stamps in various hunting area
48 places where they want to hunt and they're pretty much
49 -- to tell you the truth they're pretty much -- pretty
50 angry about having to possess a duck stamp just to go
140
1 get one or two ducks to place on their supper table
2 and, you know, I heard elders from time and time when
3 this started, I'm very, very, very unhappy.
4
5 MS. TAHBONE: Yeah, that's one of the
6 issues, you know, that's been raised in part of our
7 reasoning for trying to push it forward because not
8 only does it affect the subsistence harvester for the
9 birds itself, but it also places a burden on the
10 families that harvest the eggs. So, you know, it's
11 just one of the Federal requirements and fortunately we
12 haven't, in our region, not that I'm aware of, no one
13 has been cited for not having a duck stamp.
14
15 The US Fish and Wildlife Service, they
16 did have a three year phase in, as they were calling
17 it, where the first year they would just do public
18 education outreach regarding the requirement. Of
19 course, you know, we see little to no education and
20 public outreach occur in our region, as well as other
21 regions. And then the second year was they would just
22 provide a verbal warning, if you will. And then the
23 third year, which was last season they were supposed to
24 start citing people. But they kind of held back a
25 little bit. It is within the Regional Director's
26 purview to kind of set the law enforcement action
27 that's going to be taken, so there was no citations
28 last year; I'm not sure what will take place this next
29 spring. But they were kind of like holding back to see
30 what was going to happen with the bill that was
31 introduced.
32
33 MR. KEYES: Well, instead of having to
34 wait and wait and wait and wait and having people all
35 confused and raising eyebrows on this, it's going to
36 get worse, year to year, as our teenagers are going out
37 hunting more every year and they're starting to learn
38 the collection of the birds, but the thing is they
39 don't know the word, duck stamp. Of course a youngster
40 like that would get mad if he has to go and purchase a
41 duck stamp. It's kind of like putting a 16 year old
42 and a 65 year old together and having competition
43 between them two, none of them is going to win.
44
45 MR. SMITH: Mr. Chairman.
46
47 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Go ahead.
48
49 MR. SMITH: Which people would be
50 excluded under the proposed bill from buying a duck
141
1 stamp, how would the exclusions work?
2
3 MS. TAHBONE: The way the protocols
4 that we work under and the regulations that we work
5 under, all residents, there's several excluded areas,
6 but all residents fall under the indigenous definition
7 because under the protocols the indigenous people are
8 the ones that are eligible, it was to provide for a
9 legalized spring hunt. So it's everyone that's
10 eligible to harvest under the regulations would be -
11 would not be -- would not have to purchase a duck
12 stamp. This would be for the spring -- the
13 spring/summer hunt.
14
15 MR. SMITH: But if you wanted to hunt
16 in the fall you'd still have to have one?
17
18 MS. TAHBONE: Yeah, there is no -
19 there currently is no -- there are no regulations for a
20 subsistence fall migratory bird hunt. Currently people
21 harvest birds for subsistence under the sportshunt
22 regulations.
23
24 MR. SMITH: So I'm just thinking,
25 realistically, that wouldn't really exclude very many
26 people, would it, are there a lot of people who only
27 hunt in the spring?
28
29 MS. TAHBONE: Well, right now we're
30 just trying to deal with that, we'll go to the next
31 level. So like I said it's a whole new -- we're
32 entering a whole new -- we're looking at what was
33 submitted and trying to get some strategy to get this
34 passed first.
35
36 It's -- you know -- and it's all the
37 processes, all the different regulations that we have
38 to comply with to put food on the table, it's just
39 another regulation that we have to deal with if we want
40 to be legal. And as you know many of our people, you
41 know, there is very limited dollars that's put into
42 education outreach, people are just not aware often
43 times that they're breaking the law. And sometimes,
44 you know, people, they have to choose between
45 purchasing a duck stamp or being able to purchase
46 either ammunition or putting gas in whatever they're
47 using to go out there and put the food on the table so,
48 you know, those are really hard decisions that are our
49 people are being faced with. So, you know, a lot of
50 times, you know, they have to make the choice, you
142
1 know, they're going to have to put gas in their machine
2 in order to go out and harvest and so they, you know,
3 they're not going to purchase a license or a duck
4 stamp.
5
6 MR. KEYES: Okay, something just
7 occurred to me. For those who are not holding cash in
8 a bank or in their house or in their wallets and
9 they're only collecting food stamps, food stamps, under
10 that category would food stamps, tents, ammunition and
11 gas could be bought, could there be in any way that we
12 could -- that a duck stamp could be purchased through
13 that entity?
14
15 MS. TAHBONE: There's all kinds of
16 ideas out there. There were even ideas of our Co
17 Management Council purchasing duck stamps, anyways, I
18 don't want to get into -- I'd be happy to have a
19 conversation with you, I'd be happy to bring your
20 thoughts forward. Like I said we're still trying to
21 move this issue forward and as it gets introduced
22 there's still room for amendment but it's really
23 important that with -- at Wales, your representative
24 that sits on the Bering Straits Norton Sound Migratory
25 Bird Council, which is our regional Co-Management
26 Council, is Clyde Auksharok (ph), so he's the
27 individual that you could move your community's
28 thoughts and concerns and recommendations forward.
29
30 MR. KEYES: Yeah, I brought up this
31 idea because, you know, I've seen in the majority of
32 the villages during the wintertime, people are more
33 relying on food stamps instead of cash while it's given
34 through government, and, you know, all the way up
35 towards springtime. I wouldn't see no -- you know I
36 would like to see something that can be, you know,
37 purchased with -- if they are in need have them
38 purchase it with their food stamp deal, card, whatever.
39
40 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Okay, thanks, Sandy.
41
42 All right, so I guess we can move on to
43 the Park Service.
44
45 MR. ADKISSON: Mr. Chair. Council
46 members. Ken Adkisson, National Park Service. I'll
47 make this really quick. You've already been provided a
48 number of handout materials, I'll briefly just touch on
49 those.
50
143
1 One is a series of what we call
2 resource briefs produced by the Arctic Network
3 Inventorying and Monitoring Program for the Park
4 Service. And as you look through those you'll see some
5 of them are very specific to species like caribou and
6 dall sheep, others are much more broad in their
7 application, weather, climate change, terrestrial,
8 vegetation, large lake communities and ecosystems, and
9 finally through coastal erosion and contaminant work.
10 Those are only a few of the vital signs that we're
11 actually involved in and monitoring and protocols are
12 currently being developed for a number of others
13 including muskoxen and brown bear.
14
15 You'll find on there, links, too, that
16 you can go to, web links, to go to the website and find
17 a lot of the technical papers and the other things
18 that, you know, provide some of the resources
19 information that these are developed from.
20
21 The other one -- one of your other
22 handouts is a newsletter provided by the Arctic Network
23 and basically it covers more current activities and
24 highlights but there's also some other interesting
25 pieces of information in there related to a number of
26 the vital signs.
27
28 And then, finally, one of your other
29 handouts is more specific to Bering Land Bridge and
30 covers last years and proposed current field projects
31 for the Bering Land Bridge National Preserve, which
32 covers a wide range of activities from natural
33 resources, some of which are Park Service sponsored,
34 others which are being conducted by private
35 investigators or universities and those kind of folks.
36 And you'll find web links in there, too, that you can
37 go to.
38
39 The things that I would stress about
40 some of that is really probably three or four main
41 points.
42
43 When it comes to like the Arctic
44 Network and Inventorying Monitoring Program, when you
45 look through some of those, I think you'll find that
46 collaboration is the key, and that for carrying and
47 conducting out those vital sign monitoring we're ever
48 searching ways to do it more efficiently and to partner
49 with other groups. So, for example, the dall sheep
50 really started out largely with Northwest Alaska, was
144
1 moved into the Brooks Range and has now moved down to
2 cover Denali, and as far south as Wrangell-St. Elias.
3
4 The climate and weather station
5 monitoring projects have integrated a number of things
6 and protocols developed by other network units in the
7 Inventorying and Monitoring Program, so standardization
8 is a feature.
9
10 The other thing about the Inventorying
11 and Monitoring Program is, is that, it's really
12 dedicated to developing consistent through protocols
13 long-term data sets.
14
15 And then one of the final things about
16 it, is, data management and data storage so that the
17 material will easily retrievable and easy to use.
18
19 In kind of summary to some of that I
20 would say that a lot of our projects are carried out
21 collaboratively with organizations like the Alaska
22 Department of Fish and Game, US Fish and Wildlife
23 Service. In many cases we'll work on moose, say,
24 census project, and we're really not the lead agency,
25 we simply contribute funds, staff and aircraft support
26 to do it. And usually whoever the lead organization is
27 would be the one that produces the -- assimilates the
28 data, organizes it and produces reports and stuff from
29 it. In a few other cases we may well be the lead
30 organization and basically the data set is ours. And,
31 you know, then how we share that and how we disseminate
32 that information is pretty much up to us.
33
34 But you'll find a wide variety of
35 projects in there and just some of the current things
36 that we're engaged in or will be engaged in shortly
37 with shortly wildlife; we'll be working with ADF&G to
38 complete some muskox protocol work involving the
39 distant sampling method that ADF&G mentioned to you
40 earlier. For us, that's a very important shift from
41 the way that we had been doing muskoxen, which is the
42 minimum count method, and it's absolutely necessary in
43 this time of really fiscal constraints that we find
44 better and smarter ways to work. And in the case of
45 the muskoxen, as they expand their range and there's
46 areas that we need to add to our survey area, there's
47 no way we can continue to continue using something like
48 the minimum count method, which is so, you know,
49 intensive and cost demanding of us, and we've got to
50 find ways to do things cheaper, be able to cover more
145
1 area and probably as importantly, as ADF&G's already
2 mentioned to you, the way to develop is a good rigorous
3 statistical based, you know, estimate where we've got
4 the confidence limits that we can express so we're
5 working on that and trying to finish up that protocol
6 and that will involve working with ADF&G, both in the
7 Kotzebue area and the Nome office and completing some
8 things in the northern Seward Peninsula and in Unit 23.
9
10 And then we'll be working with ADF&G on
11 the moose census for 22E. And then with ADF&G and the
12 US Fish and Wildlife Service in some moose work in the
13 Selawik Wildlife Refuge. And then we'll also be
14 finishing up and providing logistic support to the
15 three year muskoxen project, which you've been exposed
16 to in other presentations. And this will be the last
17 year for field work on that project, and then a year or
18 so worth of, you know, data analysis and final report
19 write ups.
20
21 MR. BUCK: Mr. Chair.
22
23 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Go ahead.
24
25 MR. BUCK: I'd like to ask a question
26 of Ken. I look at all these things you handed out, it
27 looks pretty positive and everything. I was wondering
28 if you could do a study on bears or beavers and give us
29 a report on that?
30
31 MR. ADKISSON: Yes, Mr. Buck, through
32 the Chair. Bears is an interesting one. And all I can
33 tell you right now is that we are struggling to
34 complete a bear monitoring protocol and we've got some
35 problems with getting that out the door. And if you'll
36 notice in the newsletter you'll see that they actually
37 did a bear survey for Gates of the Arctic this last
38 year and that's supposedly the last field work that's
39 going to be actually done and that data will be put
40 with the other data from several other bear surveys
41 that we, and others have participated in to do and the
42 protocol will be developed from that. So hopefully
43 once that's done and the protocol's out the door and
44 people buy off on it, it'll give us a relatively less
45 expensive and way that we can actually perhaps more
46 frequently count bears and get you some of that
47 information you're asking.
48
49 Beavers is kind of a mixed bag. I
50 think it's been brought up a number of times in various
146
1 kind of context, especially related to fisheries and I
2 think, you know, OSM and Fisheries Information Service
3 can attest to that from the meetings that they go to
4 and people, you know, are concerned about it, and I
5 think beavers are sort of a mixed bag. You know they
6 benefit some species of fish, they're detrimental to
7 other species of fish and it depends on what your
8 preferences are. But, you know, there's not much doubt
9 that, you know, beavers are expanding in numbers and
10 perhaps range and probably as a result of climate
11 change and ecological changes that are going on on the
12 Seward Peninsula, so, you know, much beyond that I
13 don't know. We don't have any plans to really get in
14 and study beaver per se. But we have some interesting
15 challenges like at Serpentine Hot Springs where we've
16 got a number of beaver lodges that are causing some
17 issues for us.
18
19 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Are you ready to post
20 a bounty?
21
22 (Laughter)
23
24 CHAIRMAN QUINN: I'm interested.
25
26 (Laughter)
27
28 MR. ADKISSON: I don't know, why don't
29 you come to see me maybe at a break of something
30
31 (Laughter)
32
33 MR. ADKISSON: and hopefully we
34 can talk about legitimate
35
36 (Laughter)
37
38 MR. ADKISSON: you know, what's
39 legitimate trapping and stuff.
40
41 (Laughter)
42
43 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Sandy, I have a
44 question for you. In the past you have spoken on some
45 study or program to possibly change the regulations
46 within Parks and Preserves on picking up and use of
47 things like antlers and various items and what has
48 happened with that?
49
50 MR. RABINOWITCH: That's a good
147
1 question and I've actually got a pretty fresh answer
2 for you.
3
4 Over about the past 12 months, six
5 months, we haven't done much work on the project
6 because of the workload on the Federal Subsistence
7 Board, but the past six months we had been working
8 steadily on it. We have a new newsletter, which I
9 don't have copies of, we just finished about a week ago
10 and it sort of updates the status and I'll tell you
11 what that is real succinctly.
12
13 The Park Service has four alternatives
14 that we finally kind of thrashed out through a lot of
15 scoping with the NPS Subsistence Resource Commissions.
16 There's not one in your region. There is one over in
17 Cape Kruzenstern, for example, Kobuk Valley, a little
18 further away, but there's none in this region because
19 they're only associated with either Parks or Monuments,
20 but not Preserves like Bering Land Bridge. We're
21 actively writing the document, it's an environmental
22 assessment, you've all heard about EIS', it's kind of a
23 big document, environmental assessment's a little
24 smaller and that's what we're writing. We hope to have
25 that out on the street at some point this summer,
26 probably late summer and then have at least about a 90
27 day review period, which would run all the way through
28 the end of the fall meeting of this group, okay, and
29 the Subsistence SRCs -- I mean the NPS SRCs. So that's
30 the goal, the document out in the fall with a long
31 review period.
32
33 And unless something changes on me,
34 there'll be four alternatives.
35
36 One's the status quo, which is you
37 can't pick those things up, as you're aware.
38
39 And then there are three derivations of
40 being able to pick up things, make handicrafts and use
41 them.
42
43 And for those of you who aren't
44 familiar or new on the Council, in a nutshell, the Park
45 Service had two different requests to change our
46 regulations, which currently do not allow people to
47 pick up things like horns or antlers that are either
48 naturally shed or discarded by a hunter, and the
49 requests were to change the regulations so you could do
50 that.
148
1 So that's -- I mean I'm oversimplifying
2 a little bit, but that's what we're looking into.
3
4 We're actually covering horns, antlers,
5 bones and plants; that's kind of the full span of what
6 we're looking into.
7
8 And pretty much those activities aren't
9 allowed, we're looking into changing the regs to see if
10 we can support allowing those, and as I say, we'll have
11 three different options on the yes part, one option on
12 the leave it as is on the no part. So that's where
13 we're going in short.
14
15 I'll stop and see if you have
16 questions.
17
18 CHAIRMAN QUINN: You mentioned plants.
19
20 MR. RABINOWITCH: Uh-huh.
21
22 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Would that forbid the
23 selling of berries picked on Park Service lands?
24
25 MR. RABINOWITCH: You ask a really good
26 question. The plant part is a little complicated
27 because the existing Park Service regulations actually
28 allow collection of plant materials right now, it's
29 where the plants are different than the horns and
30 antlers, okay. So -- and I would have to look at the
31 specific regulations, you know, so I don't want to say
32 something that's incorrect, but, generally speaking,
33 subsistence users can collect plant materials for their
34 own use right now, that's okay.
35
36 CHAIRMAN QUINN: But can you sell it?
37
38 MR. RABINOWITCH: It's the selling,
39 exactly. So if you want to turn it into a handicraft
40 and sell it, which is what the
41
42 (Laughter)
43
44 MR. RABINOWITCH: law -- which is
45 what the law talks about
46
47 (Laughter)
48
49 MR. RABINOWITCH: the statute in
50 ANILCA, and that's where you've always got to go back
149
1 to, what does the law provide, okay, so it's the
2 selling part that's not allowed right now. With horns
3 and antlers the collecting's not allowed, the selling's
4 not allowed. With plants, the collecting is allowed,
5 the selling is not allowed.
6
7 MR. KEYES: Traditional use of all
8 dropped antlers, skulls, tusks, anything that is
9 dropped or, you know, left behind by a hunter, there is
10 always eventually someone out there to collect
11 something for their artistical use, which is a
12 traditional part of their life. It has been ongoing
13 since our ancestors were here before us, and now we're
14 laying down the rule that we have to fill out a piece
15 of paper to pick up a piece of skull, a piece of ivory
16 and this was -- to us it's free, it's a given -
17 natural given item to us.
18
19 Now that you mention plants, too, we
20 have edible plants, berries, greens, now, if we pick
21 those, you know, there is some bartering behind these
22 items regardless if rules are put in place for them. I
23 never heard of an elder saying I won't give you this, I
24 won't give you that, they're always pretty much of
25 saying, okay, I'm going to pick this because I want to
26 have it for the winter, a majority of our elders now
27 still pick greens, berries, use them for ceremonial
28 applications, birthdays and, you know, whatever. I
29 hate to see an elderly folk, you know, walk out on the
30 tundra and do all this picking and then turnaround and
31 see a White individual there with a piece of paper and
32 say, hey, you have to put that back; this Native
33 person's going to say, no, this was in my traditional
34 use for centuries and centuries and centuries of years
35 passed down from our generation to your generation.
36
37 It's saddening to see something
38 happening like that to our indigenous people. I take
39 it as a wrong step to do, you know, something like
40 that, after being -- it's out there, it's free, it's
41 for us to use. You know, I don't see a White -- I
42 don't see a Native person going to the store and say, I
43 got to buy these berries because they're on sale, but
44 having to see an elderly -- elderly folk, old lady
45 picking their berries, which they do every year,
46 believe me they do it every year, I hate to see that
47 person turn around and a White man standing there with
48 a piece of paper, you know, it tears the heart of an
49 individual and it will hurt the community. You hurt
50 one person, one person is connected to the whole
150
1 community and to the other villages, everybody got
2 relations in different places.
3
4 I'm not in for that, period.
5
6 Thank you.
7
8 CHAIRMAN QUINN: So have your
9 alternatives addressed, you know, sale of these items
10 beyond handicrafts? Sale of berries. Sale of horns
11 and stuff that's picked up, you know, there are markets
12 for these things, people in these regions do need
13 sources of income, you know, I've spoken of this before
14 to you.
15
16 MR. RABINOWITCH: Uh-huh.
17
18 CHAIRMAN QUINN: And you guys were just
19 looking at handicrafts, but there are other options
20 available for people to earn money off of these items.
21 What are the alternatives going to say, do you know?
22
23 MR. RABINOWITCH: Well, I can't tell
24 you ultimately what it will all say. We are -- let me
25 try to quickly reframe this again.
26
27 And, first, one thing, you know,
28 Anthony, what you just said I think I understand what
29 you say very well, I think you've said it extremely
30 from your heart and I think -- I mean I can say I think
31 I get what you're talking about. In terms -- and on
32 NPS lands right now, understand that in terms of people
33 gathering things and using them, as you've described, I
34 believe that's all fine. I don't believe there's any
35 problem at all. So what we're talking about in this
36 document would be if somebody wanted to sell those
37 things, okay, so that's the part that we're looking at,
38 and on a piece of paper, technically that's not okay.
39
40 I think we also recognize, because we
41 have a lot of people in the Park Service that have been
42 here a long time, I think we also recognize that
43 everything you've just said is completely true and
44 accurate, completely, no disagreement. The other
45 little historical fact is, and I'll come back to your
46 point here, Mike, is that the regulations that the Park
47 Service now has were basically written in 1981, or they
48 went on the books in 1981, they were probably written
49 in about 1980 and 1981, so they've been on the books
50 for a long time. So we've had these requests to make
151
1 modifications, liberalize these things and we're
2 seriously looking into it and trying to be responsive.
3
4 Mike, back to your point. The edges of
5 what we're looking at are naturally shed or discarded
6 horns and antlers, bones from any critters and plant
7 materials. So there's first the collecting part of it,
8 then there's the making and selling of handicrafts part
9 of it. One of the counter balances that we have in
10 ANILCA is direction to not rise to a level of what's
11 referred to as a significant commercial enterprise.
12 You've probably heard those words and that phrase
13 before. And you probably also know that those words
14 don't have a -- they're not defined in a regulation, so
15 if you ask me what does significant mean and so on, I
16 can tell you I can just look in a dictionary just like
17 you can and that's what I would tell you I believe the
18 answer is. So those are the counter balances of what
19 we're trying to do.
20
21 We're not getting into food stuff, so
22 if like somebody wanted to pick hundreds and hundreds
23 of pounds of blueberries or something and sell them,
24 that's not what we're looking into.
25
26 Commercial enterprises generally are
27 prohibited -- well, I'm not going to say this right,
28 and maybe, I don't know, Jeanette, if I don't get this
29 right help me out, but to engage in a commercial
30 enterprise in an NPS area, you essentially have to get
31 a permit to do that. Am I on track with that, an
32 accurate way to say that.
33
34 MS. POMRENKE: Commercial use
35 authorization.
36
37 MR. RABINOWITCH: Okay, commercial use
38 authorization.
39
40 So -- well, maybe I should stop there
41 and see if that answered or not.
42
43 (Laughter)
44
45 MR. RABINOWITCH: And if not then come
46 at me some more and I'll try some more.
47
48 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Well, you said all the
49 picking stuff was okay but they can't sell, well,
50 anybody who's lived here long enough knows that there
152
1 is some sale going on and it's certainly not a problem
2 so efforts need to be made by all of you people to
3 remove the roadblocks to the people that live here to
4 use the same resources they've been using since your
5 little studies here show they've been using them and
6 not just come up with little things like, you know,
7 letting us sell a few things we make. There's -
8 everybody's in need in this region of a little more
9 economic activity and, you know, I hope you'll observe
10 that and work to increase economic activity out here
11 within the bounds of what the system can support.
12
13 You know, you say you can't be a
14 commercial blueberry picker and seller, well, what's
15 commercial? So there needs to be an effort to define
16 that.
17
18 Both the State and Federal regs, I
19 believe, say something about customary barter and
20 trade.
21
22 MR. RABINOWITCH: Yes.
23
24 CHAIRMAN QUINN: And some of those regs
25 include trade for cash at some level. I don't know if
26 both entities allow that or just one, but there has
27 been -- and there's been figures tossed out, how much
28 can you trade for cash?
29
30 MR. RABINOWITCH: Right.
31
32 CHAIRMAN QUINN: So when you say that
33 this process has been going on, it shouldn't be just a
34 small little thing, it should be something that makes a
35 significant difference in the lives of the people that
36 live out here.
37
38 MR. RABINOWITCH: I could add that so
39 far in our discussions, this is no guarantee of the
40 future here, but so far in our discussions we've not
41 discussed any kind of dollar limits. We just
42 haven't
43
44 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Sure.
45
46 MR. RABINOWITCH: discussed that
47 as a, you know, as something that we feel like we need
48 to bump up against.
49
50 Yeah, I'll just leave it at that.
153
1 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Go ahead, Tim.
2
3 MR. SMITH: My question is a current
4 situation, is it allowed to pick up antlers and bones
5 for personal use?
6
7 MR. RABINOWITCH: No. In an NPS area,
8 no, not currently.
9
10 MR. SMITH: Oh, that's not widely
11 understood.
12
13 MR. RABINOWITCH: I would agree with
14 you.
15
16 MR. SMITH: Yeah.
17
18 MR. RABINOWITCH: And I completely
19 believe that. I mean I completely believe that around
20 the whole state.
21
22 MR. SMITH: Yeah.
23
24 MR. RABINOWITCH: I don't think it's
25 unique just to this region.
26
27 MR. SMITH: This is the first time I'd
28 heard of it and, you know, I never would have guessed.
29
30 MR. RABINOWITCH: Right. And,
31 actually, I've heard people say exactly those same
32 words. And, yeah, I mean, again, some of us have been
33 around and, yeah, I agree with you.
34
35 MR. SMITH: It's much better to learn
36 these things in a meeting like this than from an
37 enforcement officer though.
38
39 (Laughter)
40
41 MR. RABINOWITCH: Yeah.
42
43 (Laughter)
44
45 MR. RABINOWITCH: I mean, you know, I
46 could just add maybe a little bit and see if I can get
47 a smile on anybody's face, but it does seem like one of
48 the ironies is if you go out and you hunt, you know,
49 under the Federal regs that we're all sitting here
50 talking about, then any horns or antlers attached to
154
1 something that you just shot, it's yours. But
2 technically on NPS land if you were to see, I don't
3 know, a moose antler, or a caribou antler or something
4 laying there and you picked it up, then we'd say, unh
5 unh. So, believe me, I understand the irony of that.
6 But that it is the way it is in our regs at the current
7 time.
8
9 MR. SMITH: Do you have a projection on
10 how soon this is going to be addressed and whether or
11 not you're going to change that because I mean it
12 really isn't good to have people violating without
13 knowing they're violating?
14
15 MR. RABINOWITCH: Right. Again, I
16 repeat, our current goal is to get this document out in
17 the summertime so sort of August through about end of
18 October would be a comment period, that's our current
19 goal.
20
21 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Okay, let me stop here
22 for s second. With the time being what it is, I'm
23 going to have Mr. Sparks just do his bit on BLM and
24 that will probably be the end of the meeting. So if
25 you State guys want to leave, I won't need you today
26 but I do want to apologize for you sitting here for so
27 long. If I had a little more forethought maybe I would
28 have seen this coming, but I didn't.
29
30 Actually, Tom, I'm not -- you can sit
31 down but I will ask one more question of the Park
32 Service, I just wanted to let the State guys know that
33 they're going to be first thing in the morning, I'm not
34 going to get to you today.
35
36 MR. KEYES: We're waiting.
37
38 (Laughter)
39
40 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Well, I'm in charge so
41 you're waiting until I
42
43 MR. SMITH: Can I say one more thing?
44
45 CHAIRMAN QUINN: You bet.
46
47 MR. SMITH: You know what you brought
48 up a really interesting subject about customary trade
49 and that was a big issue for the Federal Subsistence
50 Board at the meeting that Peter and I were at. They're
155
1 going to be setting some numbers and we might want to
2 get involved in that. In my opinion the numbers
3 they're talking about are awfully low, you know, like
4 $750 a year. And, you know, they're talking about
5 things like, you know, dry fish and things like that.
6 There's a lot of people in this area that sell
7 subsistence caught dry fish and I really think we need
8 to be involved in the discussions because it'll make
9 things illegal that are being done fairly commonly now.
10
11 CHAIRMAN QUINN: All right. Jeanette,
12 I kind of got a question for you, maybe Ken will help
13 you with it. You're the superintendent, right?
14
15 MS. POMRENKE: Yes.
16
17 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Okay. So at our last
18 meeting I quizzed you about commercial use
19 authorizations, guide concessions and stuff. I pointed
20 out that your Preserve is the only one in the state
21 that does not have any guide concessions and you said
22 that that was being worked on. What is being done so
23 far?
24
25 MS. POMRENKE: It still is being worked
26 on. The Park is waiting for a budget basically after
27 March 1st to find out if we're going to receive money
28 to do an environmental assessment for big game guiding
29 commercial use authorization, to being those again.
30 Because the Park has not big game guiding since the
31 mid- to late '80s, it's been a long period of time. We
32 also have documented in the early '90s when the Park
33 went out to do public meetings, that certain villages
34 were adamantly opposed to big game guiding at that
35 time. Now, those opinions have changed. And so now
36 we're actively seeking funding for an environmental
37 assessment. And we'll go through the public process of
38 getting comment and everything for that. But we're
39 waiting to see if we've received those dollars yet.
40
41 So that's about it. We've had a pre
42 meeting in Shishmaref. We've talked to some people
43 there. We can have our meetings. It's just to write
44 an environmental assessment with our small staff,
45 without funding, it would take us a very long time to
46 do that.
47
48 CHAIRMAN QUINN: So at one time in the
49 past there was a guide concession on the Preserve?
50
156
1 MS. POMRENKE: I think there were two,
2 maybe.
3
4 MR. ADKISSON: It would have been early
5 in
6
7 MS. POMRENKE: It would have been in
8 the infancy of the Preserve.
9
10 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Ken.
11
12 MR. ADKISSON: Mr. Chair. Ken
13 Adkisson. I don't remember any really active ones when
14 I first got here in the mid-80s.
15
16 MS. POMRENKE: So there's no record of
17 active guiding even back then.
18
19 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Have the other
20 Preserves in the state done EIS' before they allowed
21 guiding concessions?
22
23 MS. POMRENKE: This is an environmental
24 assessment, it's not an environmental impact statement.
25
26 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Okay.
27
28 MS. POMRENKE: So the other Preserves
29 in the state have had them and throughout Bering Land
30 Bridge's history they just stopped, there was no
31 interest in them for a very long time. And when we
32 consulted with the tribes in the villages they said,
33 no, they did not want guided sporthunting in the
34 Preserve so we acquiesced to village needs. And we've
35 only had a couple requests over -- since I've been here
36 the last couple years even to hurry our process up, to
37 get it going. So we're trying.
38
39 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Okay. I guess that's
40 as much of an answer as we can ask for.
41
42 MR. ADKISSON: Mr. Chair. Ken
43 Adkisson, again. Yeah, a lot of the Preserve units had
44 fairly active guiding activities going on for, you
45 know, a very long time, like the Noatak, for example,
46 and basically they just sort of grandfathered that in
47 and the last time the Noatak National Preserve went to
48 really redo its concession contract program for
49 guiding, we actually just sort of squeaked by, and,
50 again, it was on the basis of just no significant
157
1 changes were being made and it was just sort of being
2 grandfathered in. If things were to change
3 differently, that there were substantial or significant
4 changes to the program, like an expansion or new areas
5 within the Preserve might be brought under it or
6 something like that, very likely that Park -- or Park
7 Unit would wind up having to do an EA.
8
9 CHAIRMAN QUINN: All right, thank you.
10 Okay, Mr. Sparks, we'll let you go here and then
11 that'll be the end of our meeting for today.
12
13 MR. SPARKS: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'll
14 make it short. Good to see Mr. Smith here, new member.
15 Congratulations by the way.
16
17 MR. SMITH: Thank you.
18
19 MR. SPARKS: Just want to mention a few
20 things from last fall's report that I gave. Some of
21 the village corporations we've had some success on the
22 Koyuk Native Corporation, we're about done with their
23 entitlement, we do have one section we still need to
24 transfer to them.
25
26 Unalakleet and Shaktoolik have kind of
27 taken a step back now. We have some issues with
28 Unalakleet, with some of the military withdrawals. And
29 Shaktoolik, we have some issues with some of the
30 unpatented Federal mining claims still. But we're
31 making progress with Council and Sitnasauk and hope to
32 move those two villages forward this year.
33
34 We're going to be active in Unalakleet
35 at the weir this summer. We have a new fish biologist,
36 Merland Shelesky (ph). Our subsistence coordinator,
37 Geoff Byersdorf is going to have a detail out of state,
38 and I think he's looking to climb the ranks of the BLM,
39 he's joined a leadership academy and they travel around
40 the nation and get experience in other areas.
41
42 So that's kind of the two staffing
43 areas.
44
45 And also last fall I informed you that
46 Brian Bourdon from my office here in Nome moved on to
47 Anchorage and he left in the fall, and I don't know at
48 this point if they're going to fill that position
49 behind Brian or not.
50
158
1 I guess the only other thing as far as
2 the subsistence permits and so forth. I just gave out
3 one permit, a muskox permit for 22B. The only other
4 activity that I saw, I've had some phone calls with 22A
5 remainder moose hunt and whether or not a Federal tag
6 was necessary. And there's a difference between the
7 State and Federal seasons, which I'm sure some of you
8 are aware of there.
9
10 I also had one on the Port Clarence
11 Loran Station, whether or not someone could shoot a
12 muskox on that. That land is withdrawn for the Coast
13 Guard. And on a withdrawn land, the withdrawal agency,
14 usually it's the military, not all the times, but
15 usually, or in this case the Coast Guard, so it's the
16 Coast Guard's call on that. So, Elmer, if you've got
17 anybody that's anxious over there, I guess, check with
18 the Coast Guard and I can talk with you after the
19 meeting, if you're interested.
20
21 We haven't had any new special
22 recreation permits being issued on the Seward
23 Peninsula. Same folks as before. If we do get a new
24 one we'll be sure and involve the Council.
25
26 The only other thing to report is the
27 Salmon Lake agreement was reintroduced by Senator
28 Murkowski and Begich and this is the third time for
29 that Legislation. It's passed the House in the past
30 but it never made it through the Senate. So we're
31 hopeful that that'll pass this fiscal year.
32
33 And that concludes my little talk but
34 I'd be happy to answer any questions anybody has.
35
36 MR. SEETOT: Mr. Chair.
37
38 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Go ahead, Elmer.
39
40 MR. SEETOT: In regard to your
41 reference to Coast Guard, the Coast Guard deactivated
42 last year but they still do have a five mile radius
43 around their loran station, which they tumbled to the
44 ground, but it's still active as a Federal land. I
45 might have talked to you or someone in Anchorage
46 concerning artifact digging towards the Coast Guard
47 loran station. A State Trooper in wildlife, or
48 somebody with authority went to Brevig Mission and
49 Teller and talked to those people. I'm not too sure of
50 what effect, like I say, effect, it will have on the
159
1 residents, because they will go to any extremes to dig
2 for artifacts, and that makes a problem, I think,
3 around that area.
4
5 Just to let you know if -- I do tell
6 them about restrictions on artifacting on Federal,
7 Native and State lands but they still do it anyway.
8 They say that -- that's my land, you don't -- I have
9 lived here a lot more than you have so, you know, stay
10 away from my business, that -- that's what they tell
11 me.
12
13 You know, they use more explicit
14 terms
15
16 (Laughter)
17
18 MR. SEETOT: but, you know, this
19 is real simple.
20
21 (Laughter)
22
23 MR. SEETOT: But -- but that's what
24 I've been trying to tell them anyways, you know, just
25 try -- try -- there's consequences if you do get caught
26 on Federal and State lands if you're not authorized to
27 do so, that's -- that's what I tell them all the time.
28
29 MR. SPARKS: Mr. Seetot, through the
30 Chair. Yes, we spoke last year on that. I went to
31 Teller with representatives of the regional Native
32 Corporation and we had a law enforcement officer and a
33 law enforcement officer from the Coast Guard as well,
34 so it's ongoing. BLM does not have primary
35 jurisdiction at the loran station, that's the Coast
36 Guard and that's because it's withdrawn for their use.
37 Once they're done with that withdrawal, what normally
38 happens is they try to give the land back to BLM and
39 then we make a determination whether or not it's
40 suitable to be back in the public domain. And if it's
41 not suitable then generally what happens is the land
42 gets sold through the Government Services
43 Administration or GSA for short. There's some
44 competing land selections at that area, though, but
45 time will tell how that goes. But, yeah, we're very
46 much aware of the situation for sure.
47
48 CHAIRMAN QUINN: How long has that
49 station been there?
50
160
1 MR. SEETOT: 1963 it was built because
2 I remember the people that were there that -- that were
3 down there.
4
5 MR. SPARKS: Yeah, the withdrawal's
6 pretty old. I'd have to look at the case file, but
7 certainly our lifetime, I'll say that.
8
9 CHAIRMAN QUINN: '63, well, you can
10 just go dig in their dump and get artifacts then.
11
12 (Laughter)
13
14 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Okay, anything else
15 for Tom.
16
17 (No comments)
18
19 CHAIRMAN QUINN: It looks like we
20 didn't need the enforcement officer this year, uh, you
21 got less activity.
22
23 MR. SPARKS: I think some of the
24 changes that were made with the C&T certainly didn't
25 make that a necessity or there was some concerns that
26 were brought out a couple years ago.
27
28 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Well, we just want you
29 to catch the illegal guides, we don't care about the
30 C&T part.
31
32 MR. SPARKS: Yeah, we -- there was only
33 -- there was one guide that I'm aware, but it was in
34 the Nugget that he got in some trouble this last year,
35 BLM did not permit them in our area, he was permitted
36 out of the Fairbanks district though.
37
38 And a couple years ago when the
39 Unalakleet moose hunt happened on Federal lands we had
40 an enforcement officer there as well as Geoff Byersdorf
41 and they were there for a couple of weeks and I don't
42 know that that effort will come back because there
43 really wasn't much going on.
44
45 CHAIRMAN QUINN: All right.
46
47 MR. SPARKS: But if there's -- you
48 know, anything concerns anybody as far as BLM I'd
49 welcome a phone call, or at home or it doesn't matter
50 but as long as we're communicating, I'd appreciate it.
161
1 CHAIRMAN QUINN: Okay. Well, with
2 that, we'll all be back here at 8:30.
3
4 (Off record)
5
6 (PROCEEDINGS TO BE CONTINUED)
162
1 C E R T I F I C A T E
2
3 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA )
4 )ss.
5 STATE OF ALASKA )
6
7 I, Salena A. Hile, Notary Public in and
8 for the state of Alaska and reporter of Computer
9 Matrix, do hereby certify:
10
11 THAT the foregoing pages numbered 02
12 through 163 contain a full, true and correct Transcript
13 of the SEWARD PENINSULA FEDERAL SUBSISTENCE REGIONAL
14 ADVISORY COUNCIL MEETING, VOLUME I taken electronically
15 by our firm on the 15th day of February 2011, beginning
16 at the hour of 8:30 o'clock a.m. at Nome, Alaska;
17
18 THAT the transcript is a true and
19 correct transcript requested to be transcribed and
20 thereafter transcribed under my direction and reduced
21 to print to the best of our knowledge and ability;
22
23 THAT I am not an employee, attorney, or
24 party interested in any way in this action.
25
26 DATED at Anchorage, Alaska, March 2011.
27
28
29
30 Salena A. Hile
31 Notary Public, State of Alaska
32 My Commission Expires:9/16/2014
33
163